Vinyl vs. CD

........forgot to mention all the room acoustic treatments I've done-- spent much time and money doing it too. I do not intend to get involved in a long unresolvable disagreement between the virtues of vinyl and digital-- and I don't think Albert does either. In fact, I'll give up right now and go play my new Cowboy Junkies CD "Waltz Across America", respectfully, and cheers. Craig.

Albert - it is an undiluted pleasure to read your posts as your dedication to the hobby obviously seeks to make the equipment servant to the music. And this is what this pursuit is ultimately about. Not only are your views hewn by years of experience, they are always models of balance and tolerance. And this is another attribute that makes this hobby an uplifting experience. CD's are symptomatic of our "hamburger culture" - they require minimal effort to acquire, use and maintain. However, we have to go to extraordinary lengths to make them listenable - akin "to polishing a turd". Many of us have unwillingly fallen victim to this flawed format (I, myself, readily admit to a CD collection of 4000+), precisely because the market and our hectic lifestyles have dictated this. For many of us, it is more desirable to have flawed sound than none at all.

Well, Garfish, your phrase "I was aware of the stylus dragging across the grooves" mirrors my experience precisely. And, yes, even with the so-called audiophile HQ 180gm pressings, cleaned so meticulously I could clearly see the frown on my face. But.........unlike yourself, I am a stubborn SOB who kinda refuses to give up easily. I've thrown wads of cash at the problem, have attempted to educate myself every which way, and still cringe helplessly when reading things like the above posts, where promises of audio and sonic nirvana are offered through "proper" analog rigs. Well, my analog rig is about as "proper" (+3k) as it's going to get. But after 3 tables, 5 cartridges, 2 phono stages etc. the buck(s) stops here. Now I need to figure out if there is something wrong with me or all those vinylphiles out there. If the goal of high end audio is the recreation or approximation of the "original event" it seems fairly obvious that this is impossible to achieve via vinyl. The onslaught of surface noise - forgot the pops and ticks - obviates any benefit of more "natural" sound. What can possibly do a better job at reminding you that you are not in the presence of the real thing than record surface noise? And if that NOISE is sufficiently objectionable, who gives a fig about things like soundstaging and proper imaging? The mood and the moment have already been annihilated. But I've got a lot of vinyl, much of which is not replaceable, or that I will not replace. So.....the beat goes on. Now, if there was just some way I can enjoy the MUSIC - at least as much as I did as a kid listening to a transistor radio - and forget about the EQUIPMENT, gee, now that would really be priceless. By the way, Garfish, where was this place you dumped your vinyl............?

jeez, i have a decent vinyl rig, but by no means anywhere near the top of the food-chain, at least as far as price goes! ;~) while i *do* get some unwanted noise on some of my discs in less-than-pristine condition, for the most part, it isn't a problem. and, while i *can* set-up a turntable, i don't have all kindsa fancy test equipment to aid me. while i have grown-up w/vinyl, i've listened to enuff cd's, and had enuff folks hear my set-up that are mainly familiar w/only cd's, to know that noise ain't an issue w/properly set-up vinyl. i gotta weigh in w/albert p on this one. my vinyl-cleaning regimen consists mostly of a dish-soapy sponge w/warm water, & a keith monks record-sweeper, which keeps the grooves clean & static-free, by tracking along w/the record - from the other side of the table, of course! ;~) doug

Yes, Albert's points are right on, again. I was one of the participants in that other thread. I was first getting to know Albert then, and many here thought I was "just being emotional", and had no real point to make. I will say this, here:.....................I love vinyl, and feel that the noise issue isn't an issue, unless the majority of LP's in your collection have seen thousands of plays on awful equipment (not by a 'phile), for 40+ years. If that's the case, then I don't blame you for being discouraged...............The reason vinyl has the potential to be better than any CD based system can be described in this way IN MY OPINION: If you have a halfway decent vinyl rig like mine (VPI 19jr, AQ PT-8, Benz Lo4, and Phonomena phono stage, and my linestage will remain a mystery), and you compare as similar to "the same" recording as you can find, on a CD in my CD player (you all know what it is)...what you hear is...more "continuousness" to all aspects of the soundstage, more contrast between the quietest and loudest sounds, more "reality" to the way instruments sound, and much more natural and "juicy" tonality thru the ENTIRE frequency range. You DO hear bass (and ambient bass noises in the recording) which can go all the way down to just above the arm's resonance (if you listen in good headphones, or have a decent subwoofer and good room/system setup). Pitches are much more defined and less artificial than with CD, thru the whole range. AND THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE of all, is that for the very quietest sounds on the recording (hall ambience, etc.), vinyl is detailed, real, rich, effortless....and I DO MEAN EFFORTLESS. Whereas the whole issue with this extreme low level detail, with the 16 bit format, is the reason audiophiles have always craved another "better" digital format, since the very introduction of CD. MY VINYL RIG IS NOT A STATE OF THE ART ONE, but my CD player is much closer to the CD SOTA than the vinyl rig. And yet, the vinyl is better (with LP's that are NOT very worn). Playing the ones that have more wear is still fun, still musical and satisfying, but will not be preferable to the corresponding CD on my player (assuming it exists, often there is no CD that has been issued). BUT THAT'S NOT EXACTLY A RINGING ENDORSEMENT OF CD'S..........All of that said: If I just listen to CD's for a while in MY player, then I can begin to forget about what I am missing with vinyl, and can enjoy them more...and can also listen to more music in the time I have alotted for that evening, since there is almost no "playing ritual" involved (and I DO get into the ritual with vinyl). HOWEVER.....Happiness on this level cannot really be accomplished if you just use a mass market CD or DVD player for CD's, and then turn around a spend $30k on a vinyl rig........IMO. There is just an imbalance there (unless of course you don't own many CD's, then it is the logical choice). AND THAT IS WHY I FEEL THAT TOTAL MUSICAL SATISFACTION, CAN ONLY BE ACHIEVED BY HAVING THE BEST OF BOTH FORMATS, that YOU CAN AFFORD. I also think that most audiophiles are with me on that. Someone should do a scientific poll on it...Stereophile has a vote on this on their website on occasion, and I do believe this group of mine was in the majority, last I checked. I realize that's not a very scientific poll, but it's enough for me.