BEST SUB FOR MUSIC

I use to own a 15" Velodyne before going to a Rel and although Rels quality is superior it is still a trade off. I would compare the Velodyne to the manufacture's setting on your tv. Its made to jump out at you. The Rel is more like your tv's picture after using DVD essentials. More detail and overall better picture but it doesnt jump out at you as much.

There is no question the Velodyne, in the same price range, moves a lot more air then the Rel. A lot more. To get the same air movement of the 15" Velodyne I had to go to the Rel Stentor.

I think the Velodyne is something some would pefer in the showroom but the Rel is somethimg most would pefer after using it a bit. Its strange in a way that the Rel intergrates so well you forget its there at least until you turn it off. The Velodynes precense is never forgotten.

I would say that the Rel articulates your current system like a better pair of speaker wires and the Velodyne adds something new to it.

I agree that "dave@ultrahifi.com" comments should be ignored. I went to Ultrafi.com and what do you know, he is a Vandersteen dealer. Just a sales pitch disguised as advice. Even the information of his product the Vandersteen is misleading. The Vandersteen runs with a crossover between the preamp and amp along with the amp. He claims it runs off the amplifier. The REL is the one that runs directly off the amplifier outputs, which is why it integrates well. I will say the Vandersteen is a nice sub for $1200. It is a different animal. It replaces the bass produced by your main speakers (the crossover). The REL compliments and completes your main speakers running full range.

i heard a $1200 rel in my home; i've heard the 18" velodyne in a store. bottom line: i wouldn't trade my pair of vmps larger subs, adcom gfa555 amps, & marchand deluxe xm-9 x-over for a *pair* of the top-line models from rel or velodyne. i might consider a pair of the servo towers from the old infinity irs models, or the sub towers from the $130k new genesis model. or, a pair of bag-end's largest double 18" subs, w/their $3k elf processor. but, since my system as described cost only $2400, & that was buying the fully-tweeked subs & x-over brand-new, i'd have to win the lottery first... ;~) used, i'd look at the entecs mentioned above, or the five driver per side kinergetics research sw800's... go to vmps' website & check out the specs on their subs - nothing can surpass 'em at *anywhere* near the price. only a few can even *match* 'em. and, their sound matches their specs.

doug s., no vmps affiliation, just a satisfied customer

I second Perfectimage's comments (and will elaborate more than my first post). I also went from a 15" Velodyne (the FSR-15) to a Storm-III. I can't bring down the walls as much with the Rel, but the Rel plays deeper, more accurately, faster, etc. True, the HGS series is supposed to be somewhat better than the FSR series, but I've heard them at audio shops, and they're really only marginally better. The Storm (and it only gets better as you go up to the stadium and stentor) is a true audiophile sub. As some have already mentioned, I hardly notice it's there until I turn it off. The slower rolloff (12db/octave vs. 24 in the Velodyne and most subs) is key - the velodyne 'jumps out' at you because it's thumping the mid-bass but can't keep up at the real deep bass and rolls off quickly as you get to higher frequencies. It creates a very noticeable presence for a certain frequency, unless you just turn it down, at which point you're REALLY missing the deep bass, which is what the sub is for, particularly if you have mains that go pretty deep (forgive the run-on). I hope this post adds, rather than just piling on / ganging up. Anyway, as everyone always says, opinions do vary, and home-demo if possible.

the Aerial SW12 is a stretch, but an amazing sub. The REL's are nice, sure. I have Rega Vulcan, which is made by REL. Great little sub for the kitchen system. The ML sub is worth listening to, and looks better in person than in pictures. The Revel B15 is worth a listen too.

The ultimate bang for the buck is doing homebrew subs however. I have a pair of 12" subs I built using the NHT 1259 drivers, in multi-layered-laminated sonotube enclosures. They are as dead acoustically (the enclosures) as any sub I have seen in the store or my house, and with a Bryston 10b and Classe CA200 powering them, as good a sub solution as I have heard too. And, they would run equally well with a cheaper (Paradigm X-30) Crossover and a cheaper amp. One driver I've been itching to try is the Stryke HE15, made by TC Sounds. (www.stryke.com). The Shiva has had good reviews as well.

-Ed