Good, Neutral, Reasonably Priced Cables?

...See how I go here. I forgot one other thing I wanted to assert.

The simplest circuits executed with excellence and with the best parts or materials will be the most revealing...both of its own "character" and of other components. I believe cabling has the greatest potential for this. For this reason, I also believe that well designed cabling, i.e. as neutral as possible, should serve as the foundation for assembling a system. I know this flies in the face of conventional thinking. And lest some of you think..."but of course, you sell cables!" I promise you that this view is not going to contribute any significance to Ridge Street's sales. Our 3.2% return ratio will probably dwarf how many people buy into this perspective. I consider that a shame but, so be it.

Here's some of my experience and thinking behind this: You go to the show room and here this beautiful music on this system that took who knows how long to dial in. You're looking for a CPD and like this one in this system. You buy it for $249.999.98. It's gotta be the best if not really good. You get it home and it sounds like a toaster...but a really nice one. What happened? I say that too many times, one of the contributing factors is the cabling used acted as tuning agent. That's fine if that's how you want to approach assembling a system and you want to spend ten years going in circles doing it. Some folks enjoy that kind of journey and I trust they learn a lot. I know some enthusiasts like this and they do have a lot of valuable input and info to share.

On the other hand, if efficiency is a priority, experience tells me that neutral cabling allows me to hear what that CDP really sounds like and judge more competently if the player suites my biases. When evaluating a component, not only do I use my music, I also use my cabling. I think the last thing I want to do is spend my hard earned $249,999.98 on that CDP only to have it "tuned" to something else by the editorial signature of a lesser cable. BTW, did you know that there are some well known cable manufacturers that base their designs on what will work euphorically with top selling speakers or amps, etc. primarily so they can sell more product and acquire a more reputable name as best? Not necessarily a bad thing but interesting.

Well, I hope you get the idea here. The above is kind of simplistic or a thumbnail of what I'm saying but like I said, I hope you get the idea. I know some of us know this but cabling can make or break a system and sometimes when the system is found to sound broke, it's not a function of the cables. If I have my preferences and biases defined, I believe using neutral as possible cabling as my foundation will allow me to assemble a system that meets my requirements more surely and be more satisfying over the long haul. It seems my wallet stays happier too.

I'll get philosophical here as to perhaps one reason why this approach seems not easy to embrace. Us grown ups, men and woman, are just kids (like when we were little) playing adults. This is good and at heart, we're just beautiful or charming (and some of us ornery) kids playing the game. We all have our peers. For some of us kids, the community we live in has become the neighborhood we "play" in, for some the world is their neighborhood. Others still, it's the net or whatever. Boys like their toys for the sense of adventure and discovery it gives them and like to share and/or impress other boys (and girls too but it doesn't seem to work real well) with their toys...Audio gear works well here. Cars, guns, fishing gear, wine or cigar collections and other stuff works well too. For woman, MaryKay works well so they can play Dress Up. Shopping, though the current constraints of our culture make it more difficult, is an allure to women so they can buy beautiful clothes and make up so they can be the princes they are meant to be. Beauticians of one sort or another are employed so a woman can be the princes. I'm glad. Girls play dolls when they're little and from this, in part have developed their natural ability to be nurturers for men (not mothers, guys) and children.

Somehow big amps and cool looking speakers are typically what we're drawn to. They have obvious substance that peak our inquisitiveness and are bulk enough to impress while wire is....well, it's wire. Everything it is and does is obviously not obvious. Do you get what I'm suggesting here. It's really kind of funny I think but it's human. The hierarchy of wire and it's place and function in a system and the position we give it can be allegorized like this I think: Buy your wife a car because she deserves it and she'll appreciate you. (Why didn't this reach her heart? I don't get it.) Pick a flower yourself from a field of daisies you pass by on your way home from work and give it to her because you think it reflects her beauty and she'll appreciate you and love you (Why did this reach her heart? I don't get it.) and...even after 20 + years...you might still get some. Sorry, couldn't resist.

Thanks for indulging me on this.

So, agree or disagree. There is at least some value and helpfulness in all this...No?

Cheers,
Robert

Sean, In regards to your question, I would naturally love to splat what I've learned here and puff myself up (or not) but let's do this: Let's see if another manufacturer will take the opportunity to address some of the purity/quality issue. As of now, Ridge Street is the only one I'm aware of that concerns themself or makes a point about this issue. Not full fledged rocket science but it seems to be one of those details that no one is noticing and thereby giving due attention to.

If no one chimes in I will but I won't divulge it fully since it's something we address and part of what sets us apart from what others are doing.

Kind Regards,
Robert

Sean, thanks again for sharing your expertise and also for taking the time and trouble to research the Goertz compatibility issues (potential issues).
As a side, Goertz (Alpha Core) have received a bit of flack in another post here on Gon, not for their products per se but more for their marketing strategy, and while I am not defending their marketing strategy here, I feel it appropriate to mention that my dealings with them over the last few days have been very positive. I placed an order with them on Thursday morning, for cables that obviously needed to be cut and terminated, and they arrived here in Wisconsin exactly 24 hrs later. Their customer service and sales department were very good indeed.
(I did select the solid silver spades over the rhodium plated option)
I'm trying to think when the last time was that I bought new speaker cables, probably over 15 years ago, mostly I pickup used sets from people on the upgrade trail. So I'm not sure what the typical break-in period is for speaker cables, and what percentage of the 'final' sound is heard after say 10 hours. But I have about 10 hours on these now and they are sounding a little forward, a little edgy, and the bass extension and definition isn't quite there.
Incidentally, I was wrong in my assuption that the cables would be sent with zobels. There is reference to providing free zobels on request in the literature that came with the cables, so I'm using them without zobels and I don't hear anything untoward, unless some of the 'edginess' is a direct result of using them without the RC networks?

There's a lot of reaally good information in this thread, I'm going to read through it again and better digest it.

There ought to be a Gon category for 'reference' type information, one that doesn't drop off the page when people stop posting.

Rooze.

I know that the person that is responding here is named Robert, but are you sure that you don't work for Star Sound? You just told us everything we wanted to know about something that we didn't ask about, yet failed to address a single issue being discussed. You've basically painted a picture that introduced us to you, your company, said that most of the people that buy your product enjoy it and told us it is "better" without giving any specifics as to why / how you can make that claim. Like Star Sound, you've done this for multiple posts in a row, avoided the specific issues at hand, used terminology out of context to make your explanation seem more technical than it is and left us even more confused than where we started from. When asked specific questions about this, you defaulted. I don't know if you did this hoping that others might enter the fracas and draw attention away from the situation or for someone to tell me to shut-up and play nice. Only problem is, i don't think that there's anyone coming to your rescue and others have finally realized that you don't get honest answers by "dancing around" the subjects being discussed. They might not like my approach, but they know it gets results.

Maybe i'm wrong here and you might be a nice guy and all, but telling stories about how things should work and explaining why they do or don't and what makes your product different based on verifiable facts & research is what i was expecting. Psychic built you up as someone that could do all of the above, but i've seen no evidence to support his beliefs or expectation. If this sounds harsh, i'm just speaking plainly as i always do. Then again, i'm sure you knew what to expect before you entered into this portion of the thread.

As far as other manufacturers "jumping in", i wouldn't hold your breath. The mass majority of other cable manufacturers ( there are a FEW exceptions here ) are afraid to "lay it on the line". That's because they can't explain / don't understand what it is that they are trying to sell us. They build cabling, have cabling built to their spec or simply use off the shelf parts and hide the internals. They do most of this based on what they think will get the job done, be cosmetically desirable while returning a handsome profit on their time and money invested. That's primarily because marketing hyperbole is all that is expected out of them.

When it comes down to it, most speaker cables being made today lack the design integrity to do the job right. So rather than open their mouths and prove this point, the manufacturers remain silent and hope that their name isn't mentioned in a thread like this. Wearing a 10 gallon hat, big chrome & turquoise belt buckle, pointed toe boots that jangle or click with each step, etc.. may let you walk and look like a cowboy, but when it comes down to it, you better be able to ride that horse, rope that steer and brand that calf when the time comes. That's why most cable manufacturers leave their hats at home and won't enter the arena. The arena is way too visible and they know that all that they'll do is make a spectacle of themselves. Sean
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PS... I visited your website several times, but as you mentioned, there's nothing there for someone that wants to know the "nitty gritty" about your products. One thing that i don't know if you're aware of or not is that your "accessories" link takes FOREVER to download. I have a 3 meg connection and i gave up several times waiting for it.

Rooze: Forwardness, brittle treble, smeared transients, etc... could all be signs of an amp that doesn't like the load that it sees. That is, the Zobel may cure at least a portion of that aspect of the sonics. If your amp seems to be running hotter than normal, this is also a sign of the amp self-oscillating / having high frequency problems. If such is the case, the cables should be pulled until you can get the Zobel's. To be blunt, the amp CAN be damaged in such a situation. Why they don't ship the Zobels with the cables is beyond me. Economic reasons i'm sure.

The other part of this equation is that maybe you're finally hearing what your amp / system really sounds like. I know that's not what you want to hear, but i never promised that everyone would like what they heard. I only said that these cables were the most neutral that we can currently attain. Nobody wants to look in the mirror and see all of their flaws highlighted. Using that same logic, that's why many folks resort to "band-aid" type cabling i.e. they don't want to hear how much or how little musical accuracy their system is capable of.

As far as the lack of bass definition goes, that's something that i noticed when i tried switching from MI-2 to MI-3 in one of my systems. That is, the bass was muddier and lacked definition. This can be explained though as it is both logical and electrically based.

The MI-3's have a nominal impedance ( according to Goertz ) of 1.75 ohms, which is very low. As with any other electrical device, when you drop the impedance, you pull more current. As such, it is possible that your amp is being "loaded down" by the phenomally low nominal impedance of this cable. This typically results in a loss of bass control and / or output & transient response characteristics in the treble.

To help put this into perspective, think about the sonic differences of an MC cartridge as one "loads down" ( lowers the impedance ) that the cartridge itself sees. If someone isn't familiar with this type of situation, as one lowers the impedance that the cartridge sees, the tonal balance shifts from treble emphasis towards bass emphasis and transient response varies. Finding the right loading conditions will provide the proper tonal balance and transient response. Obviously, one can tailor the response to their personal preferences and / or "band-aid" the sonic flaws in their system should they choose to do so. Personally i prefer to find out what the problem is and correct it than to try and band-aid the situation. Even with band-aids, wounds like this won't heal themselves.

As such, this is kind of what i was afraid of and alluded to in my previous post. That is, you CAN get "too much of a good thing" if you're not careful. My suggestion would have been to go for two pairs of MI-2's. This would have been the same cost and presented the amp with a slightly higher nominal impedance. That's why i mentioned this both in the thread and when i spoke to Goertz on the phone.

With all of that n mind, you really do need to get the Zobel's into the system AND get used to what you are hearing. Believe me, no other speaker cable that you've ever used has allowed your amp to actually "load up" or deliver the power potential into those speakers like what you are using now. As such, you are probably hearing more bass than you ever have and it sounds "different" to you. I'm not saying that you'll like this combo when all is said and done, only that a window has been opened. You're used to looking through the glass and dealing with the familiar scents inside the house. Now you have a slightly different picture with other aspects of the presentation to excite your senses in a new and different manner. This can be both new and exciting or "scary", depending on one's perspective and goals.

As a side note, you really have nothing to fear due to Goertz in-home trial period. If you find that these aren't to your personal taste after getting the Zobel's installed, send them back. If you liked most of what the MI-3 offered, it's up to you to see if you can check out a pair of MI-2's WITH the Zobel's. Just bare in mind that i never promised anyone a rose garden or that their system would work well with these cables. Personally, I've never had ANY problems with these cables and everyone that has ever heard them has loved them. Then again, i've only installed them in systems that i've built for myself or helped build for family and friends, so that may have something to do with it. The criteria that i use for choosing components / building a system is probably VERY different from what most others use. Between that and diferences in sonic flavouring / personal preferences, it could make all the difference in the world. Sean
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