Good, Neutral, Reasonably Priced Cables?

Sean, thanks again for sharing your expertise and also for taking the time and trouble to research the Goertz compatibility issues (potential issues).
As a side, Goertz (Alpha Core) have received a bit of flack in another post here on Gon, not for their products per se but more for their marketing strategy, and while I am not defending their marketing strategy here, I feel it appropriate to mention that my dealings with them over the last few days have been very positive. I placed an order with them on Thursday morning, for cables that obviously needed to be cut and terminated, and they arrived here in Wisconsin exactly 24 hrs later. Their customer service and sales department were very good indeed.
(I did select the solid silver spades over the rhodium plated option)
I'm trying to think when the last time was that I bought new speaker cables, probably over 15 years ago, mostly I pickup used sets from people on the upgrade trail. So I'm not sure what the typical break-in period is for speaker cables, and what percentage of the 'final' sound is heard after say 10 hours. But I have about 10 hours on these now and they are sounding a little forward, a little edgy, and the bass extension and definition isn't quite there.
Incidentally, I was wrong in my assuption that the cables would be sent with zobels. There is reference to providing free zobels on request in the literature that came with the cables, so I'm using them without zobels and I don't hear anything untoward, unless some of the 'edginess' is a direct result of using them without the RC networks?

There's a lot of reaally good information in this thread, I'm going to read through it again and better digest it.

There ought to be a Gon category for 'reference' type information, one that doesn't drop off the page when people stop posting.

Rooze.

I know that the person that is responding here is named Robert, but are you sure that you don't work for Star Sound? You just told us everything we wanted to know about something that we didn't ask about, yet failed to address a single issue being discussed. You've basically painted a picture that introduced us to you, your company, said that most of the people that buy your product enjoy it and told us it is "better" without giving any specifics as to why / how you can make that claim. Like Star Sound, you've done this for multiple posts in a row, avoided the specific issues at hand, used terminology out of context to make your explanation seem more technical than it is and left us even more confused than where we started from. When asked specific questions about this, you defaulted. I don't know if you did this hoping that others might enter the fracas and draw attention away from the situation or for someone to tell me to shut-up and play nice. Only problem is, i don't think that there's anyone coming to your rescue and others have finally realized that you don't get honest answers by "dancing around" the subjects being discussed. They might not like my approach, but they know it gets results.

Maybe i'm wrong here and you might be a nice guy and all, but telling stories about how things should work and explaining why they do or don't and what makes your product different based on verifiable facts & research is what i was expecting. Psychic built you up as someone that could do all of the above, but i've seen no evidence to support his beliefs or expectation. If this sounds harsh, i'm just speaking plainly as i always do. Then again, i'm sure you knew what to expect before you entered into this portion of the thread.

As far as other manufacturers "jumping in", i wouldn't hold your breath. The mass majority of other cable manufacturers ( there are a FEW exceptions here ) are afraid to "lay it on the line". That's because they can't explain / don't understand what it is that they are trying to sell us. They build cabling, have cabling built to their spec or simply use off the shelf parts and hide the internals. They do most of this based on what they think will get the job done, be cosmetically desirable while returning a handsome profit on their time and money invested. That's primarily because marketing hyperbole is all that is expected out of them.

When it comes down to it, most speaker cables being made today lack the design integrity to do the job right. So rather than open their mouths and prove this point, the manufacturers remain silent and hope that their name isn't mentioned in a thread like this. Wearing a 10 gallon hat, big chrome & turquoise belt buckle, pointed toe boots that jangle or click with each step, etc.. may let you walk and look like a cowboy, but when it comes down to it, you better be able to ride that horse, rope that steer and brand that calf when the time comes. That's why most cable manufacturers leave their hats at home and won't enter the arena. The arena is way too visible and they know that all that they'll do is make a spectacle of themselves. Sean
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PS... I visited your website several times, but as you mentioned, there's nothing there for someone that wants to know the "nitty gritty" about your products. One thing that i don't know if you're aware of or not is that your "accessories" link takes FOREVER to download. I have a 3 meg connection and i gave up several times waiting for it.

Rooze: Forwardness, brittle treble, smeared transients, etc... could all be signs of an amp that doesn't like the load that it sees. That is, the Zobel may cure at least a portion of that aspect of the sonics. If your amp seems to be running hotter than normal, this is also a sign of the amp self-oscillating / having high frequency problems. If such is the case, the cables should be pulled until you can get the Zobel's. To be blunt, the amp CAN be damaged in such a situation. Why they don't ship the Zobels with the cables is beyond me. Economic reasons i'm sure.

The other part of this equation is that maybe you're finally hearing what your amp / system really sounds like. I know that's not what you want to hear, but i never promised that everyone would like what they heard. I only said that these cables were the most neutral that we can currently attain. Nobody wants to look in the mirror and see all of their flaws highlighted. Using that same logic, that's why many folks resort to "band-aid" type cabling i.e. they don't want to hear how much or how little musical accuracy their system is capable of.

As far as the lack of bass definition goes, that's something that i noticed when i tried switching from MI-2 to MI-3 in one of my systems. That is, the bass was muddier and lacked definition. This can be explained though as it is both logical and electrically based.

The MI-3's have a nominal impedance ( according to Goertz ) of 1.75 ohms, which is very low. As with any other electrical device, when you drop the impedance, you pull more current. As such, it is possible that your amp is being "loaded down" by the phenomally low nominal impedance of this cable. This typically results in a loss of bass control and / or output & transient response characteristics in the treble.

To help put this into perspective, think about the sonic differences of an MC cartridge as one "loads down" ( lowers the impedance ) that the cartridge itself sees. If someone isn't familiar with this type of situation, as one lowers the impedance that the cartridge sees, the tonal balance shifts from treble emphasis towards bass emphasis and transient response varies. Finding the right loading conditions will provide the proper tonal balance and transient response. Obviously, one can tailor the response to their personal preferences and / or "band-aid" the sonic flaws in their system should they choose to do so. Personally i prefer to find out what the problem is and correct it than to try and band-aid the situation. Even with band-aids, wounds like this won't heal themselves.

As such, this is kind of what i was afraid of and alluded to in my previous post. That is, you CAN get "too much of a good thing" if you're not careful. My suggestion would have been to go for two pairs of MI-2's. This would have been the same cost and presented the amp with a slightly higher nominal impedance. That's why i mentioned this both in the thread and when i spoke to Goertz on the phone.

With all of that n mind, you really do need to get the Zobel's into the system AND get used to what you are hearing. Believe me, no other speaker cable that you've ever used has allowed your amp to actually "load up" or deliver the power potential into those speakers like what you are using now. As such, you are probably hearing more bass than you ever have and it sounds "different" to you. I'm not saying that you'll like this combo when all is said and done, only that a window has been opened. You're used to looking through the glass and dealing with the familiar scents inside the house. Now you have a slightly different picture with other aspects of the presentation to excite your senses in a new and different manner. This can be both new and exciting or "scary", depending on one's perspective and goals.

As a side note, you really have nothing to fear due to Goertz in-home trial period. If you find that these aren't to your personal taste after getting the Zobel's installed, send them back. If you liked most of what the MI-3 offered, it's up to you to see if you can check out a pair of MI-2's WITH the Zobel's. Just bare in mind that i never promised anyone a rose garden or that their system would work well with these cables. Personally, I've never had ANY problems with these cables and everyone that has ever heard them has loved them. Then again, i've only installed them in systems that i've built for myself or helped build for family and friends, so that may have something to do with it. The criteria that i use for choosing components / building a system is probably VERY different from what most others use. Between that and diferences in sonic flavouring / personal preferences, it could make all the difference in the world. Sean
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Alright Tvad, all-

Overdue post re. cable distortion references- (life, or what passes for it, sometimes gets in the way of online chats...)

Spent some time searching through the Institute for Scientific Information (ISI for short) databases. (If you don't know about these folks, they are the premier cataloguers and cross-referencers of all things published in technical fields. Very expensive to use, unless you have an academic account, or a corporate/site license. In my case, don't ask...)

Searching from 1950 to 2004 brings up two broad categories- 'Wires and Cables' at about 5500 articles, and 'Audio Equipment and Systems' at about 9300 articles. 'Signal Distortion' as a search term brings up about 950 references. Cross-searching all three drops results to about 40 references, of which maybe 5 involve signal distortions in coaxial cable designs. I can't actually access the articles immediately- will need to make a visit to one of the friendly nearby university libraries.

For what it is worth, if others want to pursue this, most useful related articles seem to come from 5 sources:

Journal of the Audio Engineering Society
Wireless World
IEEE Symposia on Circuits and Systems
IEEE Transactions on Audio and Electroacoustics
Funkschau (in German)

It would have been nice to see articles come up with titles like 'Analysis of audio-frequency signal distortion as a function of conductor properties, geometry, and environment...'. These don't seem to exist, at least not when searched for by the method outlined above. There are some interesting looking 'tutorial' articles on assorted signal distortion phenomena by Doug Preis in the ECE Dep't at Tufts University, but they are more general in scope.

It's possible that I'm not looking in the right places- either this stuff is so elementary that it is all in textbooks, or it is largely found in literature from another field that doesn't cross-reference with the search areas above.

In any case, I may follow up if there is interest. For now, a trip to your local university libraries to look at the journals above is probably the place to start for those of you who want to pursue this more.

But hey, the exercise wasn't all for nothing- there was an article or two about distortion-free signal propagation in superconducting wires. This should solve all of our problems. ;-)

Actually, when you think about it, the cost of running a liquid nitrogen/liquid helium cooling sheath around some cheap copper cables would probably be less than buying something like the Stealth Indra. (Eventually, the cost of coolant would add up, though.) Anybody want to try selling that as a high-end product? I'll provide 'Angel' funding with the $3 that is currently in my disposable income account... (On the one hand, I'm kidding, but on the other, I'm fully expecting someone on this thread to point out that it has already been done...)

Re. Alpha-Core, I agree with Rooze above- in the only dealing I've had with them, they were very responsive and went out of their way to supply me with what I needed, even though there was very little money in it for them. (Basically, I needed a few inches of AG-1 ribbon to build some jumpers- no problem.)

Cheers,