Say it aint so--- Teres quality question


As a preface-- I have been a lurker here at Audiogon for a number of years, but have never posted.

Yesterday a review of the Teres 200 series table was posted at Audioasylum. I am extremely concerned about what was stated.

I have always read fantastic things about the Teres, but this reviewer seemed to consider some issues with regard to quality-- ie:

"Some minor issues...the wood platter is not 100% true on the horizontal surfaces...a very slight rise...I suspect this is the nature of machining wood?" as well as "Product Weakness: Platter slightly off true"

I plan on joining the Teres family -- but have developed some reluctance after reading this.

Perhaps some of the members here with first hand experience will be able to put my concern at ease with regard to the reviewers statement.

Here is a reference to the post:

Review by Angus Black III on January 06, 2004 at 10:35:32

Thank you, and a special thanks to TWL for the always informative reading.

Focusedfx

128x128focusedfx
Well, I guess I had better weigh in here. I have been touting the Teres tables for quite a while now. Mine was very good in all respects, and was bought almost 2 years ago. Whether anything has happened to the QC since then, I don't know. Anyhow, I think it is up to whoever is buying the table as to whether they are concerned with these issues, and up to Chris about how he handles his QC and customer service. I don't have any stake in this matter at all, other than that I have recommended these tables in the past.

What I can say about tolerances on the platter surface is that it may not be as critical as some may think. I think that the vinyl records are not very uniform, sometimes are warped, and many platter mats or other platters may, or may not, be very perfect in their surfaces either. I haven't measured any, and frankly am wondering why people are measuring these things, unless there is some visual evidence that they are very far out, or there is some reason why some folks are concerned that Teres is cutting into the sales of some other turntable makers. I don't remember anyone measuring the platters of any other TT maker. But, then again, the other TT makers are not making the "waves" in the industry that Teres has made, and some people may be a little upset about it. In my opinion, however, the platter surface should be quite level and uniform in a production turntable. How much difference that it may make to the actual performance of the table could be debatable. Circumference tolerances would be much more critical in my opinion, regarding the speed regulation.

I've corresponded with Lugnut about the problems with the 265 that he is working on, and there is no doubt that there were some notable QC issues with that table. Also there were some notable customer service failures with that table when Pat tried to remedy the problems. So there is definitely a certified example of a problem with that one table. However, whether this can be extrapolated to the idea that there are problems with all of their tables may be going a little too far.

In any case, as with any manufacturer, the customer has the final say as to whether they will buy a given product. If Chris has gotten into QC problems and can't rectify them, then it will reflect in loss of sales. If he takes good care of the QC problems and rectifies the situation to the satisfaction of each customer, then he will be alright. All manufacturers have QC issues to handle.

To each his own. If you want a nice table that outperforms most or all of the competition, then a Teres is a viable option. If you cannot tolerate any QC problems, or have no DIY ability to overcome some of these issues yourself, then maybe a Teres is not for you. If you feel that getting a perfect QC product that doesn't perform as well as a Teres, and costs more than a Teres is what you want to do, then go for it.

In the final analysis, you buy what you want. Nobody is twisting anybody's arm to buy a Teres turntable. No turntable manufacturer is perfect, and they all have some kind of QC issues. To ask for perfection from any manufacturer is unrealistic. As long as your customer service issues are handled satisfactorily, and the product performs as you expected, that is what matters.
Clueless,

This is aside from the bearing and motor/controller.

Regarding your question about required tolerances, the Teres design has few critical tolerances. There are three holes in the plinth that all need to be perfectly vertical. I don't know how critical the manufacturer considers the location of the holes in plan view are but I know that there is a wide margin of real world allowable tolerances. The platter and armboard need to be level with each other when assembled.

The armboard pivots to the required spindle to center of arm dimension and locks down with the pivot bolt. The armboard height needs to be within the VTA adjustment.

Do not take my concerns any further than questioning if woodworking techniques have replaced machining. The project is well thought out.

This is a personal opinion based on spending so much time analyizing this table. The top surface of the platter should be machined. I feel that the plinth should be machined at the armboard mating surface perpendicular to the bearing mounting hole. The armboard should be machined top and bottom to insure its level with the plane of the platter although the heights are different. The holes for the pivot and the tonearm mounting must be perpendicular to the mating surface on the plinth.

If I were making my own table I would provide a locking bolt for the armboard. It's too easy to bump the armboard and move it with just the pivot bolt alone.
Goofy crap was intended for the ants, termites etc. comment. Believe me, I do not consider conservation goofy. But, there is a substantial amount of wood out there already. The Cocobolo I am using is an "estate piece" that was harvested in the 1920's. The rest of the wood is old as well. I'm funny about that kind of stuff. My shop is set up for production work and I mostly use engineered wood products. Paul's shop, Period Furniture Restoration, where I'm building the TT, is a craftsmans shop of the highest order. We do not misuse/abuse the medium in which we work!!

I don't think in the Teres plinth (or any other) there is anything remotely resembling tolerences. Now, before I catch hell for this, listen. As long as the top and bottom surfaces are parallel to each other, nothing else matters!! Otherwise you could not level it. Think about it. For that matter, the top does not even have to be flat, as long as the bearing is exactly 90 degrees from horizontal. I've been experimenting with designs, and this is the ONLY requirement that is set in stone.

Basically, the same goes for the armboard. Level, and the right height. It really does not even have to be part of the plinth. As long as it is stable, solid, and non-resonant, you're ok.

Obviously, resonance is a major issue with all of the pieces, but lets leave that issue for another day.

Platters are a different story. The major requirement there is balance. If the weight is not balanced, it will not run true, and will not be able to keep a constant speed. Of course, this requires balance in all axises (axii?) also.

Now, I want to make one thing clear about my comments. I AM IN NO WAY A TURNTABLE EXPERT!! YET. I have done sh**loads of reserch on this subject. I intend to build custom tables for sale. I have a couple of design ideas that I think are really cool, and I also think I can compete with anything out there. My brother-in-law has doctorates in electrical engineering and physics, and as far as the electronics are concerned, he and both I think the Teres motor/controller are the cat's ass! He's also a lawyer, but I don't hold that against him since intelletual property law is his specialty!
One more thing. I think we should turn this thread into a forum for the design issues we have with turnatables. Maybe designs you would like to see. As I said in my last reply, I fully intend to become the next turntable manufacturer out there. I plan on starting out making 2 a month, and going from there. This obsession is starting to make me go right to Paul's shop in the morning, not to mine! We have been spending more time with design ideas lately than I have spent finishing my table. I gotta get this damn thing done!

Some design ideas/questions:

1. Teres motor/controller/bearing but direct drive? Psychic, you listening?

2. Alternative plinth materials?

3. Wood tonearms ala the old Grados

4. Oil/lead filled platters. I found a way to do it.

5. Just how crazy are we?

So, if you were going to have someone custom build you a table, what do you want to see? And, who is going to be the lucky one to review my new table serial #1? Does anybody think there is a better bearing than the Teres? Or their motor?

Preamp of the century my ass, let's see where this goes!!

Joe
You know, the lag time on these posts are killing me.

David, I got a little carried away there:

"I can build you one that is absolutely perfect in every aspect, but it will cost you 10-12k. And that's for just a wood one, no inlays, no bells and whistles, no veneer. End grain on the edges. Do you want to spend that?

No, I don't want to spend that, and to do it right should not cost anywhere near $10-12K WITH INLAYS. Oy. You have really got to be kidding on this one. But, yes, the proper pressing equipment in the laminating process and GRAIN MATCHING AND SELECTION TO ACHIVE PROPER GRAIN ORIENTATION is more costly than folks might imagine."

It was meant a little to be a little sarcastic, and I agree with your comment. I feel that absolute quality DOES NOT HAVE TO BE EXPENSIVE. And, I think we could combine a little marquetry on the top & sides, dress up the arm board.…

And that's what I am going to try and do: Make it "perfect" and keep down the cost. Who needs another 10k turntable? I’d be willing to do that on a commission basis, but production is another thing. 3-4k is a different story. Remember, the Teres motor/platter/bearing costs $1500. The time I have spent on mine is crazy. One cannot spend that kind of time on a project and expect it to be financially feasible.

BTW, I’m locking down my arm board from the top. One knob. Easy adjustment.

Joe