Say it aint so--- Teres quality question

Let me begin by saying that my intent is not to pick at Teres in particular because all companies seem to have quality control issues at one point or another. The more important issue is whether such problems are addressed quickly and effectively.

Too, I have heard now four different Teres tables and they have, without exception, been great sounding tables. Bottom line? Maybe. However, if there are issues with QC or long-term stability (with any product), it is the very ethos of these boards that folks like Patrick should make others aware of them, provided the comments are fair and reasonable. In that sense, I hope his fears of becoming “unpopular” as a result are unfounded.

In addition, I do not really mean to single out Jphii, but I’m sure it will sound that way. It is just that his post echoes what others have said elsewhere in one post and I must respectfully disagree in some cases.

Jphii sez:

"If you have an issue with Teres (the company) woodwooking skills, try this: DO IT YOUR SELF! I am. Then you can find out just how hard it is to do properly."

It is not a matter of hard (as in difficult), as much as a matter of having the right equipment, skill and taking the requisite time needed. It is not as if lathes are not available to or used by woodworkers, it is just that many are not properly setup and/or the user does not have sufficient skill. Anyone selling expensive products based on wood should certainly have the proper equipment and skilled labor to deliver a fine product and be able to meet scheduled demand without rushing and thereby sacrificing the product. Note that I am not saying this has been done in Patrick’s case. I am speaking generally.

"You can get it perfect, if you want, I know I can. But, a very big but, why spend the energy to make it absolutely perfect if it does not have to be? There are parameters that need to be met, but outside of that you just get ridiculous."

That but may be as big as JLo’s to you, but perhaps not others. Depends on your outlook, I suppose. The point of ridiculous in this hobby does get blurred with some frequency, I’ll grant you that!

"I can build you one that is absolutely perfect in every aspect, but it will cost you 10-12k. And that's for just a wood one, no inlays, no bells and whistles, no veneer. End grain on the edges. Do you want to spend that?

No, I don't want to spend that, and to do it right should not cost anywhere near $10-12K WITH INLAYS. Oy. You have really got to be kidding on this one. But, yes, the proper pressing equipment in the laminating process and GRAIN MATCHING AND SELECTION TO ACHIVE PROPER GRAIN ORIENTATION is more costly than folks might imagine.

"If you do, it will be perfect. Flat, level, no gaps, no cup.”

My feeling is that flat, level, no gaps, no cups should be standard tolerance at most any price. Sadly, it isn’t when looking at any number of tables.

“Wanna know something funny; it will not stay that way. Wood is affected by temperature, humidity, and other factors. IT MOVES. It's organic."

BINGO. BINGO. BINGO. And thank you. It is the nutshell of my concern with wood platters. I know, many will say that the fluctuations will be so minute as to obviate any serious issues with musical reproduction. It does appear that Teres has taken this into consideration and feels they have addressed this issue sufficiently. I’d have interest in a detailed, step-by-step process of a platter’s construction – raw wood to finish before having the confidence to buy. Maybe Teres can share that with us. If it is giving away trade secrets, no problem, there are others that don’t share that info, either. It is just a part of an ultimate buying decision. And, as long as I can get my money back in, say, 5-10 years if there are issues, I might just be cool with any current assurances.

"I consider myself a very accomplished woodworker. I do very high end work. For those who are willing to pay for it. I am very expensive."

I consider myself the same, having accomplished many detailed marquetry projects, stringed instrument restorations, and other high-tolerance work. If you can command $10-12K for a wooden armboard and platter, I'd bow and scrape to your ability to exact exorbitant labor prices and propose going into business with you! 

"I can't imagine how Teres builds the table for the price they get for them. I am willing to bet that if you take a look (physically take a look) at a 300 series, the quality will be higher than the 200 series, which is higher than the 100 series. More money = higher quality, period."

With your experience in woodworking, let your imagination flow a bit more. Your equation should be correct, though, and as the price escalates, the nearer to perfection one should expect, even if perfection isn't perceived as mandatory.

Well, I guess I had better weigh in here. I have been touting the Teres tables for quite a while now. Mine was very good in all respects, and was bought almost 2 years ago. Whether anything has happened to the QC since then, I don't know. Anyhow, I think it is up to whoever is buying the table as to whether they are concerned with these issues, and up to Chris about how he handles his QC and customer service. I don't have any stake in this matter at all, other than that I have recommended these tables in the past.

What I can say about tolerances on the platter surface is that it may not be as critical as some may think. I think that the vinyl records are not very uniform, sometimes are warped, and many platter mats or other platters may, or may not, be very perfect in their surfaces either. I haven't measured any, and frankly am wondering why people are measuring these things, unless there is some visual evidence that they are very far out, or there is some reason why some folks are concerned that Teres is cutting into the sales of some other turntable makers. I don't remember anyone measuring the platters of any other TT maker. But, then again, the other TT makers are not making the "waves" in the industry that Teres has made, and some people may be a little upset about it. In my opinion, however, the platter surface should be quite level and uniform in a production turntable. How much difference that it may make to the actual performance of the table could be debatable. Circumference tolerances would be much more critical in my opinion, regarding the speed regulation.

I've corresponded with Lugnut about the problems with the 265 that he is working on, and there is no doubt that there were some notable QC issues with that table. Also there were some notable customer service failures with that table when Pat tried to remedy the problems. So there is definitely a certified example of a problem with that one table. However, whether this can be extrapolated to the idea that there are problems with all of their tables may be going a little too far.

In any case, as with any manufacturer, the customer has the final say as to whether they will buy a given product. If Chris has gotten into QC problems and can't rectify them, then it will reflect in loss of sales. If he takes good care of the QC problems and rectifies the situation to the satisfaction of each customer, then he will be alright. All manufacturers have QC issues to handle.

To each his own. If you want a nice table that outperforms most or all of the competition, then a Teres is a viable option. If you cannot tolerate any QC problems, or have no DIY ability to overcome some of these issues yourself, then maybe a Teres is not for you. If you feel that getting a perfect QC product that doesn't perform as well as a Teres, and costs more than a Teres is what you want to do, then go for it.

In the final analysis, you buy what you want. Nobody is twisting anybody's arm to buy a Teres turntable. No turntable manufacturer is perfect, and they all have some kind of QC issues. To ask for perfection from any manufacturer is unrealistic. As long as your customer service issues are handled satisfactorily, and the product performs as you expected, that is what matters.

Clueless,

This is aside from the bearing and motor/controller.

Regarding your question about required tolerances, the Teres design has few critical tolerances. There are three holes in the plinth that all need to be perfectly vertical. I don't know how critical the manufacturer considers the location of the holes in plan view are but I know that there is a wide margin of real world allowable tolerances. The platter and armboard need to be level with each other when assembled.

The armboard pivots to the required spindle to center of arm dimension and locks down with the pivot bolt. The armboard height needs to be within the VTA adjustment.

Do not take my concerns any further than questioning if woodworking techniques have replaced machining. The project is well thought out.

This is a personal opinion based on spending so much time analyizing this table. The top surface of the platter should be machined. I feel that the plinth should be machined at the armboard mating surface perpendicular to the bearing mounting hole. The armboard should be machined top and bottom to insure its level with the plane of the platter although the heights are different. The holes for the pivot and the tonearm mounting must be perpendicular to the mating surface on the plinth.

If I were making my own table I would provide a locking bolt for the armboard. It's too easy to bump the armboard and move it with just the pivot bolt alone.

Goofy crap was intended for the ants, termites etc. comment. Believe me, I do not consider conservation goofy. But, there is a substantial amount of wood out there already. The Cocobolo I am using is an "estate piece" that was harvested in the 1920's. The rest of the wood is old as well. I'm funny about that kind of stuff. My shop is set up for production work and I mostly use engineered wood products. Paul's shop, Period Furniture Restoration, where I'm building the TT, is a craftsmans shop of the highest order. We do not misuse/abuse the medium in which we work!!

I don't think in the Teres plinth (or any other) there is anything remotely resembling tolerences. Now, before I catch hell for this, listen. As long as the top and bottom surfaces are parallel to each other, nothing else matters!! Otherwise you could not level it. Think about it. For that matter, the top does not even have to be flat, as long as the bearing is exactly 90 degrees from horizontal. I've been experimenting with designs, and this is the ONLY requirement that is set in stone.

Basically, the same goes for the armboard. Level, and the right height. It really does not even have to be part of the plinth. As long as it is stable, solid, and non-resonant, you're ok.

Obviously, resonance is a major issue with all of the pieces, but lets leave that issue for another day.

Platters are a different story. The major requirement there is balance. If the weight is not balanced, it will not run true, and will not be able to keep a constant speed. Of course, this requires balance in all axises (axii?) also.

Now, I want to make one thing clear about my comments. I AM IN NO WAY A TURNTABLE EXPERT!! YET. I have done sh**loads of reserch on this subject. I intend to build custom tables for sale. I have a couple of design ideas that I think are really cool, and I also think I can compete with anything out there. My brother-in-law has doctorates in electrical engineering and physics, and as far as the electronics are concerned, he and both I think the Teres motor/controller are the cat's ass! He's also a lawyer, but I don't hold that against him since intelletual property law is his specialty!

One more thing. I think we should turn this thread into a forum for the design issues we have with turnatables. Maybe designs you would like to see. As I said in my last reply, I fully intend to become the next turntable manufacturer out there. I plan on starting out making 2 a month, and going from there. This obsession is starting to make me go right to Paul's shop in the morning, not to mine! We have been spending more time with design ideas lately than I have spent finishing my table. I gotta get this damn thing done!

Some design ideas/questions:

1. Teres motor/controller/bearing but direct drive? Psychic, you listening?

2. Alternative plinth materials?

3. Wood tonearms ala the old Grados

4. Oil/lead filled platters. I found a way to do it.

5. Just how crazy are we?

So, if you were going to have someone custom build you a table, what do you want to see? And, who is going to be the lucky one to review my new table serial #1? Does anybody think there is a better bearing than the Teres? Or their motor?

Preamp of the century my ass, let's see where this goes!!

Joe