Safe audiogon transactions; lowering the bar.


It appears to me that a large number of people send bank
checks / money orders to pay for used equipment sight
unseen. Most private sellers insist upon this form of
payment. The culture appears to require buyers to take
significant risk in order to benefit from lower prices.

Although this is not surprising in itself, it seems to me
that Audiogon could preserve the long term health of this
website, and its priviledges with more proactive policies.

e.g. providing guidelines on how to conduct a proper
transaction; a list of important questions to ask,
what the seller / buyer should have in writing before
a transaction should proceed, and perhaps provide a
summary of the most common problems which develop between
sellers and buyers.

There are nagging questions: Who owns the equipment once
it has been shipped? Who should be insured?

Perhaps some experienced sellers and buyers would share
their own approach to transactions on this site and how
they get people to put their best foot forward despite
themselves.
hindemith
It's fun to see how suspicious minds deal with risk. The truth for everyone here who trades cash for goods is that there are no guarantees. Cod does present the risk of there being A.......s like that thief last summer from San Diego who paid cod's with forged certified checks to the tune of 100k+ and those who speak about boxes with no goods in them. I'll never understand those who have little or no transaction history and are untrusting of others who have substantial immaculate transaction history, and believe that cod is the answer. It kinda makes me suspicious of them!!!

Even in the box, in person transactions can be tainted. In person only assures the players that there is an item and that there is cash. NO more!

The protection under Paypal is only concerning verified members up to $200??? And when shipped to a verified address and when the claim is made within 30 days of payment. I have been clipped twice on ebay by CD/R sales which I thought Ebay would handle and by the time I didn?t get re-payment, it was over the 30 days. Not much money involved, but no repayment. Paypal has no guarantee against chargebacks when the purchaser uses a credit card as payment method. BIG RISK!

Wire transfers have clear advantages. Initially, banks have verifiability of accounts with tax id's and other bank references, generally including credit histories. Additionally, in order to wire funds, the seller has to provide verification of who, where and telephone confirmation numbers all of which can be checked. Reverse look up phone numbers for addresses and if not satisfied, ask for the audio shop the piece was purchased at and then look up the number and call the shop. Sellers can provide their bankers names and phone numbers as well. There is at a minimum very little likelihood of fraud by anonymity.

With the above available, I?d never ship cod to anyone with low feedback. EVER! Yes, anyone who does buy from me is taking a risk. But that risk isn?t that I won?t ship or that the goods aren?t as advertised, only that they won?t like what they thought they would.

Wires can't be stopped once received except for bank error. So, at least one half of the risk is removed. No method other than in person exchange completely eliminates the risk to the second party of not receiving the goods.

It?s unfortunate that only one side of the risk can be eliminated. But, given that fact, it?s 100% better than both sides being at risk.

Bill E.
Thanks for your comments, Driver. I agree that a phone call or two is extremely useful. Also, when a seller feels awkward about COD, I always offer to pay a non-refundable deposit equal to the shipping and insurance. That means that the most that the seller can lose is the time that the equipment is away from home....

I've heard--perhaps someone here can confirm or deny--that ebay gets 2-3 times as many complaints from buyers as they do from sellers. I mean SERIOUS complaints, not junk about how someone took 24 hours to reply to an email or oh my God there was a fly speck on page 48 of manual and the seller didn't tell me.
Interesting point of view, Bill, in that you detail all the steps you take to protect yourself from uscrupulous buyers yet bristle at the idea that buyers might desire to protect themselves from unscrupulous sellers, as well.

This isn't about paranoia, it is about playing on a level field. I'm dubious about sellers who say "trust me" but obviously don't trust their customers.
Bill, what you said...
"I'll never understand those who have little or no transaction history and are untrusting of others who have substantial immaculate transaction history, and believe that cod is the answer. It kinda makes me suspicious of them!!! "
I once had the pleasure of dealing with exactly that type of buyer & under those same circumstances; yes I was suspicious of someone who wouldn't even trust a seller with immaculate credentials. This guy wouldn't trust his own mother! I tried to accomodate him initially but the COD became such a hassle that I rescinded the offer. I then got slammed with 3 illegal neg. feedback postings (Audiogon fixed that of course). Later I found out from 2 other sellers that they had experienced significant problems with this clown. I was sure glad that I listened to my gut feelings; I could just tell that he was a jerk from the very beginning.
Bishopwill is correct re: leveling the playing field. I have always wondered why it's usually taken for granted that buyer take risk by sending $ on trust. I have and continue to urge Agon to set up a relationship with an escrow service to try and make it a more even and safe relationship for both buyer and seller. IMO, this is a very serious deficiency in the net transaction model. However, so far, I've been OK on all counts. Made a few mistakes, due to lack of research or not carefully reading ads. Ebay is way more of a risk than here, IMO.