What's wrong with classical music on vinyl?

With all due respect Albert, I'm not sure that certain specs are misleading or that they should be waived altogether... (the latter being NOT what you're suggesting, I know).
Some measurements/ specs of interest made by an Australian testing audio media can be found here. These reflect what many people try to describe -- but cannot rationalise upon...
Speaking of the 16bit 44,1 standard, part of our problem stems from how the 22kHz ceiling affects the audible frequencies one octave below. Speaking of LP noise floor, the interesting spec is the noise to dynamic content ratio; most good analogue rigs extract a very high dynamic content rendering the noise content "sonically immaterial" -- NOT the other way round (i.e. on good analogue there is NO noise).
Speaking of ("channel", I assume?) separation at least spec-wise, quite a few cartridges spec over 60.

Finally, speaking of riaa correction, most devices out there are "well below par" IMO. I'd use the other word related to erogenous rarefaction, but it's forbidden by the powers that be:). Cheers

Rauliruegas, and Albertporter....Your suggestion that my disagreement with you regarding some aspects of LP technology stems from a lack of experience is foolish, because you have no way of knowing. I freely admit to now owning a playback system like Albert's, but if that were a prerequsite to have any opinion 99.9 percent of audiophiles, and all of the general public would be silenced. And don't give me the "it's the music" story. If that were all that was important a Bose waveradio would suffice.

Gregm...As you say, it is signal-to-noise ratio that matters, not noise level per se. This is why surface noise is not a problem with most pop music that is recorded with very ittle dynamic range. Classical is another story.

Can you offer a list of cartridges that have separation specs over about 40 dB at 1000Hz, (and less at higher frequencies).

Hi folks,

I have been following this thread for a few days and would like to make a couple of observations that I THINK have not been covered.

The superiority of the LP medium as concerns the expression of musicality is, to my ears, clearly superior to CD in ways that have been covered by other respondents to this thread. There is one aspect of the issue of "noise" that I don't think has been adequately covered, and I think explains why many find the LP's arguably higher noise floor unobjectionable. The "noise" of LP playback occurs outside the sonic plane of the music, which is why many can "listen through" the noise. This noise is a result of the mechanics of playback, and is not woven into the fabric of the music content. The noise that I hear in CD playback is, in fact, in the same "plane" as the music content, and consequently much harder to ignore.

Speculation as to the quality of Sufentanil's classical music pressings and turntable system aside, I propose that one of the reasons why he finds the noise on his classical LP's so objectionable is, ironically, the superiority of acoustic unprocessed music recorded in a real acoustic, as a test of a playback system's ability. I wonder if, in fact, there is that much more mechanical noise (pops, clicks) present when he plays back classical LP's as opposed to pop LP's. Mistracking is a somewhat seperate issue; as has been pointed out, tracking an orchestral brass section playing fortissimo is going to be much more taxing to a cartridge/arm than just about anything that I have come accross on a pop record. I suspect that part of his sensitivity to the mechanical noise is that it is heard in stark contrast to the purity of unprocessed music, while an occasional pop or even mild mistracking heard in the context of the distortions of electronic/amplified musical instruments, gross processing and multitracking, become pretty unobjectionable.

While my two comments may seem to contradict each other, I think that this may point to a listener's preference for a certain type of music over another. Speaking for myself, I have found that when listening to music that doesn't particularly rock my boat, I tend to be much less tolerant of the problems in it's playback. While music that really turns me on, I can enjoy on my shower cd/radio player.

Best to all.

Eldarftford,

I freely admit to now owning a playback system like Albert's, but if that were a prerequsite to have any opinion 99.9 percent of audiophiles, and all of the general public would be silenced.

There seems to be plenty of support for analog from Audiogoner's who have spent considerably less money than I did. Many of them agree that LP provides superior musical reproduction.

As for opinion, there is a need for truth as well.

Audiogon is a high end audio site and reference to "the ultimate" is a perfect position to take, even if only as a base line of what may be achieved. If you cannot or will not make the financial commitment, fine. Just don't say your way is the only way because you choose to make compromises.

And don't give me the "it's the music" story. If that were all that was important a Bose Wave Radio would suffice.

That's a ridiculous statement. No one at Audiogon works on getting their Bose Radio "right," unless that's your reference, then that would explain your aversion to analog.