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Need a system for Chamber music--ideas?

My current system does well with larger scale works - orchestral, choral, etc, and also with solo works. Where it struggles is with chamber music. String quartets in partiuclar are a problem. It is essentially impossible to distinguish between the 1st and 2nd violins. Maggies are always going to struggle with this due to the side by side arrangement of the ribbon tweeters with the midrange panels. I could go two ways.
1. A completely distinct system in another room, using monitors. If I go this way, I might like a reccomendation on a tube integrated to pair with the speakers, and the speakers should be able to go close to the wall for flexibility. A concern here would be decent reproduction of piano-- don't want to create a new problem in listening to piano trios etc. I'd probably like to stay under 7K for the amp and speakers new or used.
2. A set of floor standing speakers or monitors to swing into place in my current system for listening to chamber. They should be below 80lbs each to facilitate moving. The maggies are going to stay for large scale works. I'll keep the current system in place, so the floor standers should work well (at least initialy) with high powered SS amps like my Cary 500.1's. Again, 7K-10K, new or used. Accurate timber and coherence, especially with violins, are imperitive. It will not be necessary for them to play above 90dB. Also, the speakers must be able to throw a convincing stage for string quartets. Speaker placement will be along a short wall in a 15.5 x 19 x 8' room. I do like the sound of Sonus Fabers. Might be open to Dali's. Wilsons in this price range are out, and I don't like Dynaudio, Theil, Aerial 7T's. Haven't heard Ref 3A Grand Veenas or Merlins but you hear good things about them. I will not buy speakers unheard, so I'm wanting to generate a list of speakers to audition. When I bought my maggies it was a 2 year process. Your thoughts please?
brownsfan
mapman's avatar
mapman
22,709 posts
 
IT's also a good point that experimentation with the placement of the Maggies in the room along with corresponding sweet spot might get you further towards what you seek, maybe completely. I've owned Maggies and proper placement is critical for good imaging and soundstage. IT usually involves significant distance from rear wall, 1/3 to 1/2 room length possibly, more so than most speakers. THere are some good threads here on A'gon that discuss some seemingly esoteric but effective speaker placement options for planars in particular that are worth knowing about.

I first heard Maggies in Jim Smith's shop called "Audition" I believe in Birmingham Alabama years ago. Those (Placed well into the room away from rear wall) were probably the best set up Maggies I have ever heard still to date. I bought a pair on the spot! JS is an acknowledged expert on getting the best sound out of most any gear. HE has a good book available that might be of value there if optimizing your Maggies performance is of interest.

Also always a good idea to have a reference recording that in fact contains the sonic aspects you seek. You can't get it if its not there to start. Recordings all vary. Make sure you have the right reference recording for what you are looking for. Many recordings on Dorian and Mapleshade labels in particular are very good (often "magical") in regards to 3-D detail, imaging and soundstage.
brownsfan OP
1,508 posts
 
Onhywy and Mapman, The room is 19 ft long, with the Maggies out 60" from the back(short)wall. My listening position is back as far as I can go, which means I'm about 12' from the speakers. I have Smith's book and found it useful. Interesting point on the concert hall experience. Its pretty much always the same crowd, same people in the front at every concert. A lot of the early quartets were written for very small rooms. The conversation between the instruments was a substantial part of the music. For me, sitting back further in a larger venue looses this aspect of quartets from the classical era. Orchestral (symphonic) arguably should be "together heard" as you are suggesting, but I'm not so sure this is what Haydn and Mozart had in mind for their quartets.
Mr. Tennis, No problem distinguishing (spacially or otherwise) the viola from the violins. The viola is (usually) far right, and the violins far left and left center, with the cello right center. Most of my recordings appear to be close miked. I can't think of a single string quartet recording that gives a mid hall perspective. This is part of the problem. The rather clear spacial distinction between the viola from the cello, the cello from the violins, and the viola from the violins, fails with the two violins.
My point with sitting front and dead center in a live concert was to determine what it might be possible to hear in a close miked recording if the system were ideal. If what I am seeking is not obtainable live, then perhaps I shouldn't be trying to recreate it.
learsfool
1,215 posts
 
Another idea would be to go old school - pair something from the Klipsch Heritage series, say the Cornwalls or Fortes or Hereseys with a nice tube integrated. I am listening to the Brahms Piano Quintet on my Cornwalls, which are driven by a PrimaLuna Dialouge 2 as I type this. A set up such as this definitely meets all of your stated criteria, at quite a bit under your stated budget.
whart's avatar
whart
3,150 posts
 
Brownsfan: given the nature of the material, Quads would be ideal. And not necessarily new ones. I've owned Quads since 1973, in various iterations, and still have an early pair of the original ESLs as well as a pair of Crosby modified 63's. I haven't listened to them in a while, since i switched to a horn based system back in 2006.
I was stunned at how good a (restored) pair of the original ESLs sounded in Robin Wyatt's room at the Waldorf back in April 2012. He was using a pair of smallish tube amps and a Charlie King built preamp made from old Levinson parts. Granted, the source was tape, which was peerless, but the string tone and elucidation was beyond reproach. The normal caveats about the original ESL are also not problematic given the program material you want to use this system for- the lack of deep bass, the limitations in dynamic range, and the relatively narrow sweet spot. But, man those things are good. Not sure what you have in mind for source and preamp- perhaps the same gear you use for your current system- but worth hearing a good pair. And you can get in (and out)* of them pretty easily if they were properly restored.

_______
*Most people who have owned the original ESL usually regret selling them and often buy another pair. They should be set up a little higher than the factory feet allow, and placement in the room is critical. They also seem to like small tube amps. My impression- not necessarily shared by others- is that the original ESL's midrange is better than the later 63, even my Crosby version, though the latter is not as constrained in bandwidth or dynamic range. I haven't had hands-on experience with the latest Quads, so my comments don't necessarily apply to the current models. Plus, the old ones are a classic.
brownsfan OP
1,508 posts
 
Learsfool, its been ages since I heard the Cornwalls. I did not like them with orchestral music, but as a speaker for chamber music they might be worth a listen.
Whart- I really do like the Quad suggestion. As you point out, they are legendary for a reason, and I've always wanted to own a pair. I've always known I couldn't live with them as my only speakers, but this could be the time to pull the trigger. My listening room is already set up around a narrow sweet spot (though the 3.7's are not as bad as previous Maggies). I will not want to change the amps at this time, so they will have to deal with solid state.
Rok2kid and Mr. Tennis-- I did some more listening last night -first to some old Haydn by the Takacs on Decca. I had forgotten how bad the recordings are. I never listen to them. They are miked away from the instruments, so that it sounds as if you are listening to the quartet seated at the opposite end of a tunnel 300 feet away. You get a rather tiny central image with no separation of the players. Next I listened to the Mozart Oboe quartet K370. This is the Linn recording and is very well done. Its close miked, but not too close. Good localization of the oboe and cello, but the violin and viola sound like they are seated pretty closely, so its hard to localize them in space. However, it is important to note that none of the instruments are larger than life, which really makes this recording compelling in its realism. This recording suggests to me two things-- Typical recording techniques are probably adding to the problem, but there may be a limit to what I can achieve with my current set up.
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