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Round Two: Best Speakers for LOUD music and rock??

Hi:

ROUND TWO, here we go.......

I listen to mostly rock, classic rock, female vocals, and the occasional dramatic symphony or opera, VERY LOUDLY.

I posted here before, and, taking everyone's comments into account, I purchased a used set of Genesis Vs.

They are great speakers, but failed for me in three critical areas: One, they seem to cause my amps to shut down at much lower volume than my present NHT 3.3s (even though the Genesis are rated as 3dB higher efficiency -- 90dB/4 ohms, as opposed to 87dB/4 ohms for the 3.3s), two, I cannot successfully couple these speakers to my room in such a way as to make the bass taut, dynamic and authoritative, and three, they do not image, in my room, as well as the 3.3s. Not even close.

My main system now consists of:

NHT 3.3s,
NHT SubTwo Subwoofer (60Hz & below only)
Cary 306/200 CD Player,
Sony XA 777es SACD player,
BAT VK5i preamp,
Audio Research M300mkII tube monoblocks,
MIT 750 Shotgun Tube Biwires,
MIT 350 Twin 30' ICs,
AudioZen Silver mkII I/Cs for front end.

I have a LARGE listening room with lots of glass & high sloping ceilings, app. 20x40 ft. w/18' ceilings.

I want to try again to upgrade my speakers, and I am considering a used pair of either Dunlavy SC-Vs, JM Mezzo Utopias, Legacy Focus, VMPS, Montana XP, Revel Ultima Studios, etc., etc.

My system is a tad bright right now, but not objectionably so. The imaging is stellar, and the soundstage depth is good, not great. I want smooth, rich, warm sound, yet detailed and clear, and as I said, I listen at VERY loud volumes for extended periods of time. I MUST have the slam and tight, low bass needed for the type of music I listen to.

Because of the size of speakers involved, I will obviously not be able to hear them with my system 'til I buy them, but, I guess I can just buy a good used pair here on Audiogon & sell them and try another pair if I need to.

Any comments/suggestions?

Thanks - Jeff
jeffj
marty9876
120 posts
 
Jeff,

God I must be getting old(I'm 26) to say this. I two have a large urge to go after what you are trying to get but have so far resisted, and it's getting easier. It seems the older I get, each day just a tich, max spl's are no longer a concern. This is good for two reasons, one being the silly little hearing lose issue(this is serious I guess :)) and the other is that most of the high end equipment I have used does not seem to play very loud. Note I said the equipment I have used.

I think to play very loudly, >105db's on average, one needs very good, very expensive gear. The amps need to be huge(>600wpc?) and the speakers need to be very expensive, and be selected carefully, which you are trying to do.

I can't give you and hard answers only that for me, max spl's are slowly becoming a non issue. I seems that on average, great gear seems to only be great in lower(>105db's) volume ranges.

Other than that, listen to Sean, I think he is still chasing the dragon. Probably more like whopping it's ass.

Marty
sean
6,231 posts
 
Twl: I don't know if you remember my original suggestion in Jeff's first thread, but it was not that far off from what you stated here. I took it up a notch in terms of refinement over commercial models and chose models that are very easily modified into what is a "good" speaker.

Rlwainwright: I've used big horns of similar design to the Klipschorn's and 100 wpc is not near enough power to do LOUD, especially in that sized room. Besides that, the folded horn design that Klipsch uses can not deliver the "immediacy" on vocals that a direct radiatior delivers.

Marty: Thanks for the compliments. I think that Jeff is simply proving some points that i've tried to bring up before. That is, high level rock is difficult to do right if you try to take the "audiophile approved" method. He has very high quality high powered ( 300 wpc monoblocks ) audiophile grade ( ARC ) amps, big brand name speakers ( Genesis ) and still can't "jam" like he wants to. As such, sometimes you just have to put aside the pre-concieved notions and go with what will get the job done. Been there, done that and learned a bit along the way.

Having said that, the easiest way to get their is a multi driver array that is quite efficient and a LOT of power. The less efficient the speakers are and the bigger the room, the more power that you'll need. Simple, isn't it ??? : ) Sean
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sogood51
2,157 posts
 
Get two pair of Vmps ST/RSE and stack the left one on top of the right upside down so the ribbons are in line with each other, bolt them to each other with a bracket in the rear. Get two powerhouse SS amps for the bass and run the mids off of your ARC amps. I know this is crazy sounding but it will more than work for you. You will have 8 ft. tall 440lb. speakers but they will fit right into a room that size and it will make for some great conversation.
sdcampbell
2,136 posts
 
Sean: All good points in response to my post. I should have said in my post that the Vandersteen speakers will not play at very high volume levels in large part because they use a first-order crossover, and most speakers that have first-order crossovers aren't well suited to sustained high volumes. However, all of the Vandy speakers, whether or not they meet Jeff J's personal listening requirements, will perform very well at volume levels that are sane for home sound reproduction.

As a follow-up, I got a nice note from JeffJ in response to my post, and we talked about issues of hearing loss, etc. I'd like to thank him publicly for taking the time to contact me and clarify some points about his listening needs.
sean
6,231 posts
 
Scott: Speakers with first order crossovers "should" typically be more efficient than a speaker using a more complex and parts heavy crossover. If one uses very high quality drivers with good power handling characteristics, i see no reason why a speaker using first order crossovers shouldn't be able to play loud.

I think it boils down to how the speaker is designed. There are compromises involved when aiming for low volume detail or high spl capability. Many designers try to shoot for something in middle and i think that Richard basically aimed for lower to middle range spl reproduction. As such, he sacrificed high power output and concentrated on the listening ranges where most "normal" people end up doing 80% of their listening. This does not make it a bad product, only one that is limited in the grander scheme of things.

Like anything else, you have to buy what will work for you AND get something that you like. Speakers are VERY personal, probably more-so than any other component in a system. As such, one must pick and choose what models best fits their needs while taking into account the various trade-offs built into each design. Sean
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