Tubes vs Solid State - Imaging, Soundstaging, 3D

I began to write a response to Melbguy1's admonition of Charles1d's
comments last night, but decided to not post it since I figured Charles1
could, as he well did, defend himself, I didn't want another discussion to
turn, once again, into bickering, and I wouldn't want Mel to think that I was
"playing cop". But, alas, the bean hasn't kicked in yet this
morning, and so against my better judgment....

Mel, I think the point you miss is that it was you who made the first move
towards inciting a flame thread. First, you speak of owning two tubed CD
players with which you did some tube rolling, and you mention the positive
attributes of tubes in general. Then, you seem to discover the
"joys" of ss; cool. But, and here is where you need to look a
little more closely at your own comments. Everyone up to that point had
expressed opinions without being sarcastic or negative about differing
views. Although, I admit I wasn't sure what to make (until later) of Wolf's
typically boundless and incisive wit :-). Here are some of your comments:

**** Audiophiles who buy SS amps which offer similarly
rich, holographic sound as the best tube gear without the maintenance
issues simply spend more time enjoying music and leading a balanced life.
****

****You're a one-eyed tube guy, cool. All I can say is enjoy your tube rolling
& i'll enjoy buying and listening to music.****

****my earlier comment was in response to what I saw as a ridiculously
biased comment which lacked objectivity****

****this forum is becoming more mid-fi and guys like me who have serious
gear get talked down by a lot of people who in many cases simply don't
know what they're talking about.****

Really? I would reconsider some of those assertions. And do you not see
how condescending they are?

BTW, speaking of knowing or not knowing what anyone is talking about. I
always find it interesting, when there is a clear "Mars/Venus"
situation in a discussion, to look at posters' posting history. I notice (as I
often do) that there is not a single post by you on the subject of Music. So,
what are YOU talking about? From the vantage point of this cop, if you
can't understand the connection, there really is no hope.

Oh, oh, the second cup is kicking in, I better hit the "Submit
now" tab before my better judgment takes over.

Frogman, for someone accusing me of being sarcastic, you did a pretty good Pearl Harbor job.

BTW, I was totally sincere re Wolf; no sarcasm there at all. I always appreciate his wit.

Hi Melguy1,
I have no desire for this thread to become another "us vs them" scenario, there are many in the archives as it is . I have no interest in moderating comments either. Here's the deal, you find SS amplifiers better suited to your needs and objectives, who can argue with your choice?
I through my personal audio evolution have conclude that tube amplifiers are superior in providing what's most important to me.

We both have reached our own decisions based on what we have heard, it's really that simple. I haven't nor will I say anything negative or condescending about your choices, there's no reason to do so.
I don't know why you feel the need to make derogatory and dismissive comments about the people who have expressed a preference for tube amplifiers ("midf"i, you really think so?). You say guys like you with "serious gear" get talked down. Wht mkes your gear "serious" relative to other's systems here? Who's "talking you down? Your opinion is here to be read and responded to like all the rest of us.

Mel you're actually the one who has changed the tone of this thread and reacted defensively. Personally I respect your audio component choices and welcome your perspective. I hope you respect my audio choices even though they differ from your own.
Charles,

Well, thank you for the overwhelming amount of information. I did not mean to start a controversial discussion but I suppose that is inevitable when the topic of tubes versus Solid state comes up. What I have gathered from the discussion is that the overwhelming sentiment feels that tubes provide equal or better imaging, spatial cues and dimensionality than solid state. It appears that my first job will be to explore rolling these smaller tubes.

In all but a few cases I was comparing integrated amplifiers of the tube and solid-state variety although in one case I was using a set of solid-state monos. My impression of low level listening is that tubes provide the most information but as volume increases I find that solid-state is more expressive. To draw a comparison from the video world, I would say that tubes are like a glorious standard definition Blockbuster displayed on a CRT screen where as solid state comes across as a much crisper 1080 Blu-ray film. In my experience solid-state amplifiers have the tendency to grab and hold my attention for longer than tubes do. I think this is because I visually listen to the music and am constantly trying to figure out where a guitarist is standing, how close the singer is to the microphone, how many microphones were used for the drums, etc.

My experience seems to be the same as everyone else's on this thread except for the fact that I have my amplifier technologies reversed. Hopefully time will tell what the missing variable is. I have indeed optimized my speaker positioning in the room quite painstakingly. I have had quite a few speakers that are popular on this site, many of them being monitors or many monitors which are famous for pinpoint imaging. Dyn c1 sig, focal utopia be, harbeth shl5, maggie mmg, 1.6, 1.7, pas imagine b, bw 802n, bw 805n, bw 805d, usher tiny dancer, metlin tsm mmi, sf cremona auditor m, selah monitors...

With my solid-state electronics I truly feel like spoken voices are coming from a definite pinpoint in space. When using tubes on the same speakers I feel the image is more general and not as pinpoint. Also when using solid-state I hear something that is akin to a Hall effect that you might find on an A/V receiver which makes the room sound bigger. While I am not doing this via digital processing, this is one of the things that I would attribute to a three dimensional soundstage. Also using solid-state I feel that I can judge distances between instruments front to back, side to side better.

I will say though that it has happened that I have turned on my solid state gear in the morning and just recoiled at the way that it sounds. Something about my hearing early in the morning craves tubes. I hope it is a coincidence that I cannot hear very well in the morning and my hearing gets sharper throughout the day as I wake up.

I am surprised at the lack of support of solid-state in this thread. However, everyone gets a vote and the voices seem pretty unanimous so I will have to keep my ear is wide open for what I have not been hearing.