2. amps-preamps
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Power and low volume listening - my imagination?

Over very many years in this hobby I've owned quite a few good amplifiers but have never used amplifiers, either tube or solid state, with power ratings greater than 100wpc. This choice was partly based in the assumption that my listening tastes include almost no high volume choices, and, therefore, did not require a lot of power. I think I have been wrong.

Because of some recent changes to my system I decided to try an experiment using more amplification. This included the use of a Peachtree Audio Nova pre amplification out to an old B&K AVR307 with about 70wpc greater than the Nova. The improvement in every way that I'm capable of judging was impressive; the bass is definitely tighter and detail in the upper mid and higher frequencies is also improved, and this is noticeable at all volume settings. I realize that this improvement may be a result of different general sonic characteristic of the two power stages and not due simply to a difference in power ratings.

This experience, though, has me inspired me to pursue a more permanent modification to my system in the form of an appropriate stand alone power amp. Now, the reason for this post and the question I'm posing has to do with power vs character. As with most advice I've asked for on this forum, any responses will be in the form of opinions but I respect them and am looking, if for nothing more, a starting point.

So, is it reasonable to assume that I need more power than what I'm used to in order to keep the improvement that I described? If so, what might be some good choices on the used market for under $1000; I've seen some that are priced right such as Peachtree 220 but am concerned that, although more powerful than the Nova, it may not sound so much different. The combination that I'm currently using as I've described here is quite nice and maybe some would recommend staying with it but, as always, it would be nice to continue down this road for yet more improvement. Anyway, what do you think?

My current system is Shanling S100 CD player, Peachtree Audio Nova, B&K AVR307 and Martin Logan Odyssey speakers.
128x128broadstone
saki70
907 posts
 
I'm happy that you are better off after the change . So many are not .

The efficiency and design of your speakers has a lot to do with how they sound with different amounts of power .
Using the analogy of the logs ... the difference would be a
log 20" in diameter compared to one 2" in diameter .

Happy Tunes
beewax
173 posts
 
Not imagination, its science. Speaker manufacture always rated their speaker 50 - 500 Watt etc... If you use a 50w amp you get 20% of the sound and require a lot of tweaking to sound better. Or if your amp is 500w or more. Music will sound at its best, enjoy listening at any volume.
broadstone's avatar
broadstone OP
310 posts
 
Thanks Saki and Beewax. I'm providing a short history regarding my attempt at resolving the issue of high fidelity low volume listening and it's relationship to/dependency on adequate power, if for no other reason than to provide a possible shortcut for others who may be as clueless as I.

In the beginning, as I have already stated, I didn't consider more power as a solution because of my relatively low volume listening. The only thing I didn't change in the process of searching for a solution, was the speaker pair I've used for the last 10 years. I believe the amplifier that best served my purpose was the 100wpc Rogue Audio Sphinx which, IMO, is a superior amplifier, but I felt I was still missing what I was looking for. In a multi item trade I acquired an 80wpc Peachtree Audio Nova integrated amp which has a great front end but the overall performance with my speakers was an even greater disappointment.

At one point I had a pair of Jamo Concert eights which were probably the best sounding speakers I've ever had in my home so put my Odysseys up for sale in hopes of finding another Concert 8 pair or Canalis Animas which I auditioned but couldn't afford w/o offing something else; thank goodness they didn't sell. At the suggestion of serious local hobbyist I decided to at least try using higher wattage and bought the Peachtree 220 power amp keeping the Nova as a preamp.

As I said, the system has come alive and I am enjoying music that I had stopped listening to quite a long time ago. I'm not in any way trying to imply that Peachtree is the answer or that more power is necessarily going to improve listening for all speaker types and brands. It's just that I hit on a fortunate combination of components that worked well for me.

My present system is Shanling S100 CD player, Peachtree Nova, Peachtree 220 and Martin Logan Odysseys speakers with various, not necessarily special, interconnects and speaker wires.
david12
1,454 posts
 
I get the premise here, that all things being equal, 500 watts will sound better than 50, through the same speakers, but all things are not equal. Power costs money, particularly with tubes and even 100 tube watts are going to cost a lot more than 50, for the same quality. With tubes as well, absolute power is not as important as output transformer quality and current.

The other consideration is the speaker, does it have high sensitivity and impedance, if so, low power may sound better. Take my speakers, Daedalus, they offer high sensitivity and impedance and can be driven from say 8, to 400 watts. Lou the designer, likes power and demos them at shows with 100 to 200 watt Modwright amps. Now I have'nt done a side to side comparison, but I am sure they would sound better to me, with my Audio Research ref 75 power amp and sounded pretty good with a 20 watt SET. The amp I liked least, if that makes sense, in my system, was the most powerful, a Karan K180 integrated..

So, as so often with this hobby, they is no right or wrong answer. It always seems to end up, on the one hand...., but on the other.....
larryi
3,974 posts
 
Yes, there is a problem with the "all things being equal" concept--that is merely a theoretical concept and is never actually the case. In order to get more power out of an amp, multiple output devices are used and this adds another factor that makes any comparison unequal. Something is changed and sacrificed to get more power. If a particular setup truly needs such power then the sacrifice is justified, but if not, then the power reserve is wasted at the expense of some other aspect of sound quality.

Some manufacturers have gone to extremes to keep the number of output devices down for this reason (e.g., DarTzeel). Perhaps, the choice of output devices that deliver more power will also adversely affect sound quality (e.g., picking a 300b tube over a 45 tube).

I recall auditioning several Rowland amps many years ago and preferring their smaller and cheaper amp over the larger ones with speakers that did not need a lot of power. The sound of the larger amps loafing along sounded flat and lifeless. A number of factors could be at play in this case, but, comparing similar amps from the same manufacturer at least gives a clearer picture on this issue.

While I have heard only a few high powered amps on my speakers, none, tube or solid state, compared favorably with lower powered amps on my fairly efficient system (99 db/w). That has been the case with other higher efficiency systems I have heard. I find many very high powered tube amps with lots of pentode or tetrode tubes in parallel to be particularly bad sounding (brittle sounding with a lot of "glare").

In short, I would caution against a generalization that higher power will improve sound.
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