That "tube sound" and power ratings


This might be a newbie question since I've only begun researching tube technology. I understand to some degree the theory that tube sound is partly related to second harmonic distortion vs. the more prevalent odd order harmonic characteristics of SS. If "tubies" prefer that sound (I might be one of them), does it make sense to carefully match an amplifier's power rating such that it is NOT TOO HIGH for the speakers it's driving? If the rating is too high won't that mean lower distortion and hence less tube sound for a given volume for those speakers than a lower power tube amp (in general that is - I realize not all Watts are the same). So won't a high wattage tube amp have less of the special tube sound "tubies" like at their preferred listening volume?

I realize I'm likely missing something here. Set me straight!
hazyj
Zkzpb8 & Mapman - thanks!

Almarg - very helpful, thanks! Yes, my post is focused narrowly on this one question, but I'm not. When I listen I listen for what pleases my ear. If this is one of the things that does or does not then I'll note that fact and keep listening. I'm not really looking for specific amplifier suggestions, at least it didn't occur to me to do that. If I do it will be in another post, but I doubt that'll be necessary.
Hazyj, There is something to the idea that smaller amps sound better. In the case of push-pull tube amps, this has almost entirely to do with the output transformer itself. The reason for this is that the more power the output transformer can handle, the less bandwidth it has. So in the larger designs, usually the designer has made a tradeoff based entirely on what he thinks is important.

If the amp employs negative feedback, usually the high frequency bandwidth is the area that is sacrificed. This is because there is not a lot of energy at high frequencies so its possible to get away with this if you also run negative feedback to help output a little with the voltage response of the amp which will be degraded (another way of looking at this is the output impedance will be higher at the area of the rolloff and beyond).

In the old days, 60 watts was about the limit where the output transformer could make the bandwidth required to really be hifi. That bandwidth BTW is well past 20Hz-20KHz; its nice to get response up to 100KHz if you can so phase shift at 10KHz is not adversely affected. This really helps with the presentation of the soundstage, depth in particular.

These days designers seem to have pushed that power level up to about 100 watts before bandwidth really starts to suffer.

Now the problem with push-pull is often that there is a phase-splitter circuit that introduces some distortion. This is not true of all P-P amps, but it is true of most of them. This generally is not an issue until you get into the lower power regions of the amplifier, at which point the distortion of the phase splitter comes into play. For this reason a highly efficient speaker (+98 db or so) may not be the best choice with a plus-100 watt amplifier as you may never get the amp out of that region of higher distortion at lower power levels.

SET amplifiers get around this problem by not having a phase splitter (that's how we do it too although our amps are push-pull). This allows them to have a distortion characteristic that becomes unmeasurable as the power decreases to zero. To really take advantage of this, you really do need a high efficiency loudspeaker! The reason is two-fold with SETs- first, that bandwidth limit discussed with the OPT of P-P amps is more profound with SETs, the practical upper limit being only about 7 watts before bandwidth is degraded (for this reason many SET designers don't bother trying to get the bass right in the OPT as the speakers that have that kind of efficiency don't play the bottom octave either). The second reason is that you never want to push an SET past about 20% of full power or else the higher ordered distortion products come into play (when this happens, its usually on transients, and because the human ear uses the higher orders as loudness cues, the result is that the SET sounds a lot more dynamic than it has any right to because the loudness cues are occurring on the transients. You read about this 'dynamic' character with SETs all the time, but its an indication that the speaker used is not efficient enough).

Where is is all going is that if you want to really get the most out of your tube amplifier investment dollar, the selection of the loudspeaker is really important!

Something else to be aware of: Tube amps make more power and run more efficiently into higher impedances. You really don't want to make **any** amplifier (tube or transistor) work all that hard- the harder you make it work, the more distortion it will have. So you want to avoid 4 ohm speakers generally speaking- the amp will make less distortion into 8 or 16 ohms. This has nothing to do with whether the amp employs negative feedback or not- and it has everything to do with the fact that OPTs operate more effectively (wider bandwidth, lower distortion, less amplifier power converted to heat) into higher impedances. This is why you are seeing more 16 ohm speakers on the market these days- designers are slowly figuring this out.
Atmasphere, who out there today is making good quality 16 ohm speakers? With no impedance dips much below that I mean.

A google search on 16 ohm speakers turns up little at least on teh fist page.

WHat are some good ones at various price points? Which ones are full range?
As usual, Al's explanations are exceptional and I agree with everything he says in his post. I'm not sure if I'm getting this line in the OP's first post.

"If the rating is too high won't that mean lower distortion and hence less tube sound for a given volume for those speakers than a lower power tube amp (in general that is - I realize not all Watts are the same). So won't a high wattage tube amp have less of the special tube sound "tubies" like at their preferred listening volume?"

When I read that, it sounds to me like people with tube gear are choosing lower power amps so that they will distort. And the distortion is pleasing to the ear. That's not the case. People with tubes, just like people with SS, don't want their amps to distort. But if, and when, distortion does occur, there are those who feel that tubes sound "less bad" when they distort. I think that might be the missing piece you were looking for. But I think it would be a mistake to say people buy tube amps to make them distort. (Unless they play guitar. lol) Also, something else to consider is that tube amps and SS amps sound different from each other when they are not distorting. And both designs are liked and disliked, for the way they sound when operating under normal circumstances. That's why in my first post, I said why don't you listen to some tube gear. Its something you really need to hear for yourself to form an opinion. Its not easy to put this stuff into words.
Zd - thanks for this most helpful reply. I do understand the idea of "less bad" distortion at at or near clipping (I really do!), so it's not a missing piece if there was one. Rather you hit the nail on the head when you wrote "But I think it would be a mistake to say people buy tube amps to make them distort." I would have believed that a month ago before I started reading ... whatever I've been reading (I know - maybe I should stop reading, but then again what are the rest of you doing here? You should be listening to your systems! Sadly mine is missing an amp). And now there's a couple people commenting here that seem to be contradicting your statement. So, are there any closeted tubies here willing to come forward and confess to their tube clipping fetishes?