Turnable database with TimeLine

If your blindfolded friends can't identify the DD Victor from the BD Raven, but they have a clear preference for one over the other, what is it that they like? I must not understand your point.

I was referring to my previous statement….

Today, still.....you will read from experienced audiophiles how they can "hear" the effects of this speed correction circuitry in DD turntables.

to make the point that ‘hearing’ the artifacts of DD speed correction circuitry (aka quartz-locked) is not a factor in my listening room?
And those who make such claims may be hearing things other than that which they think? :-)

To clarify things for Dover……I have written many times that the ‘actual’ speed of a turntable is not as relevant as the ability to maintain ‘constant’ speed.
Why else would the TT-101 have the provision in its controls to vary the pitch up or down in increments of 6Hz?
When I wrote that I could hear the speed WOW from 33.33rpm to 33.32rpm……this was an instantaneous CHANGE in speed.
There is no way that I can tell if a turntable is rotating at 33.33rpm, 33.87rpm or 33.25rpm…..as long as there are no instantaneous variations.
And that’s why I believe that the extent of ‘stylus drag’ exhibited by a particular turntable is important.

Now the KAB strobe is an excellent device and no-one should be discouraged from using one to set the speeds of their turntables.
But for Peter and especially Lew (who has been championing the KAB for years now) to suggest that the KAB is as accurate as the Timeline and/or shows the effects of stylus drag…..is simply misleading.
HERE is a video showing the KAB on the Raven AC-2 both with and without stylus engaged.
The speed (33.33rpm) appears identical under both conditions and could lead one to surmise that ‘stylus drag’ is a myth?
Contrast that to the same Raven AC-2 with the TIMELINE where ‘stylus drag’ is confirmed and differs to the KAB results?

Finally….like Peterayer….I am disappointed that this Thread on the Timeline has somewhat been hijacked by those who have contributed nothing utilizing the Timeline….and who curiously seem to have an agenda against the Timeline?
I have nothing against subjectivists (being decidedly one myself)…..but this Thread is designed to remove subjectivism from the subject of turntable speed accuracy….and demonstrate objectively what has never before been documented?
It has not been claimed that perfect speed control produces the ‘perfect turntable’….but to actively ‘bash’ a scientifically objective tool and database appears suspiciously defensive?

Halcro, I applaud your efforts to document the effects of stylus drag to support the argument in objective terms. And your last post is very clear and a good explanation of what you are doing and attempting to show. My only criticism is that your hand-held camera moves enough as to be distracting and does make it more difficult to clearly see what is going on. Could you use a tripod to create a clearer video?

Interestingly, when I use the KAB strobe to set speed, it does show a very slight variation with the effect of stylus drag, which is why I have often said, that in my case with the SME 30/12, I set the speed with the stylus in the groove. I do understand your point that even this method does not answer the question as to what is happening with different amounts of drag and perhaps my table can not deal with that as effectively as your Victor does.

But, I will say that the KAB does show on my table the effects of drag as I have to adjust the controller about one click (1 hz or .01% or something for each click on the controller). The Timeline does show this more precisely and you have the added advantage to view the laser dash on a wall 20 feet away for extreme accuracy and the real story. I just contend that the Timeline operates at a level that is greater than the adjustability of my controller and my hearing to detect changes on this scale.

Instantaneous changes in pitch are another matter which I do not think that I hear in my system. Perhaps those with better training or ears could.

The 6Hz pitch increment of your Victor seems a bit course. Are these the increments by which you can adjust speed?

I also wish there were more videos added to this thread. It makes me question the confidence of some of those who criticize the TimeLine.

Accuracy and measurements are not everything, but I learned first hand last night how a speaker movement of 3/16th" away from the listener can alter the sound.

Lewm, I'm not sure if the MS motor is actually auto correcting anything, but you're right about the belt affecting the sound. Set the tension even slightly too loose and it will lose control over the platter. This isn't much of a problem if you use a rubber belt but critical with thread and even with their SF-1 belt. The speed will still read correctly using a strobe but the platter is slipping undetectably. This results in a lackluster sound, vague image and loose bass, this is why you sometimes see people switching to a different motor using rubber belts. The belt tension will make or break the sound of MS tables.

I'm pleased at your reaction Harold-not-the-barrel......
This Thread has a few videos of both DD and belt-drive turntables,,,,,enough to form an impression of their performances under load.....
What we have still to see, are Idlers and Rim-drives with the Timeline?
If you have an iPhone....it would really help us to see your Salvation direct rim-drive with the Timeline? You can upload the video directly from the iPhone to YouTube.
It really doesn't matter whether it 'passes' the Timeline test? It would be great to see exactly how it 'fails'.....as this would add significantly to the Database?

Peterayer, I had several KAB strobe units in the past and noticed sample to to sample variations and locking at a different speed from my AC strobes, so I sopped using them. Only recently we got the battery operated Ortofon units in and again we found the KAB strobes a bit off.

Disclaimer- Ortofon dealer.