Turnable database with TimeLine

Lewm,
I dont have any preference as to direct drive, thread drive or rim drive. I prefer to make my decisions based on listening. I have owned all 3 drive types at various stages. Turntables owned and/or used in my own system include - Garrard 301/401, Townsend, Well Tempered, Sota, Oracle, Pink Triangle, Logic, Kenwood DD, Oracle, Goldmund & Final Audio to name a few.
TT's with the ET2/Carnegie Model One I have heard include Townsend, Sota's ( many ), Oracle ( several ), Final Audio, Goldmund Studio ( 2 of ).
I also own a Dynavector DV501 & Dynavector Nova 13D cartridge ( along with many other cartridges and arms. Incredulous as it may seem a customer here in New Zealand had up until recently a Dynavector 501/Nova 13D combination mounted on an L07D. I have run the Dynavector 501/Nova 13D many times on the Final. The same Nova 13D has since been removed from the L07D/Dynavector 501 and remounted on to an SME20 with SME V arm.
With regard to the SP10mk3 I have heard Richarkrebs system many times over the past 30 years which evolved from a Goldmund Studio/ET2 to the SP10mk3/ET2 - I sold him a Madrigal Carnegie Model One for his ET2 years ago.
I also have to hand an SP10mk3/Technics EPA100 for extended listening.
So the answer to your question is yes and no. I have heard these TT's with the same arm/cartridge combinations many times, but not so in my current system as it is always evolving.
If I did not own the Final Audio, I do not know what I would buy as the nearest equivalent is the Kondo Ginga which is a derivative of the Final Audio, although the Kondo has less sophisticated speed control and a much smaller motor than my Final Audio.
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-turntable-ginga-kondo-ginga-2014-02-05-analog-italy-irwin-oh

Halcro has just proved empirically the superiority of his Victors. His videos with 3 TAs in action at the same/different time is the most beautiful I´ve seen in hi-fi forums so far. Poetry in high fidelity turntables, and that´s pretty extraordinary. Let´s hope he will get soon fixed his good old TT101.
The speed constancy is the most important feature in TTs to produce music.
I changed from belt drive to the Salvation direct rim drive and the difference was like night and day. Mine maintains the speed stability for most of the time but does not pass the TimeLine test though, probably due to mains voltage fluctuations but that´s another thing.
The L07D is a fantastic vintage DD TT, as many here have posted, like the latest review by Dave the Messenger who praises his L07D over his heavily modded TNT.

Back to square one. We want more videos ! There are plenty of other threads for drive method/TT design discussions.

If your blindfolded friends can't identify the DD Victor from the BD Raven, but they have a clear preference for one over the other, what is it that they like? I must not understand your point.

I was referring to my previous statement….

Today, still.....you will read from experienced audiophiles how they can "hear" the effects of this speed correction circuitry in DD turntables.

to make the point that ‘hearing’ the artifacts of DD speed correction circuitry (aka quartz-locked) is not a factor in my listening room?
And those who make such claims may be hearing things other than that which they think? :-)

To clarify things for Dover……I have written many times that the ‘actual’ speed of a turntable is not as relevant as the ability to maintain ‘constant’ speed.
Why else would the TT-101 have the provision in its controls to vary the pitch up or down in increments of 6Hz?
When I wrote that I could hear the speed WOW from 33.33rpm to 33.32rpm……this was an instantaneous CHANGE in speed.
There is no way that I can tell if a turntable is rotating at 33.33rpm, 33.87rpm or 33.25rpm…..as long as there are no instantaneous variations.
And that’s why I believe that the extent of ‘stylus drag’ exhibited by a particular turntable is important.

Now the KAB strobe is an excellent device and no-one should be discouraged from using one to set the speeds of their turntables.
But for Peter and especially Lew (who has been championing the KAB for years now) to suggest that the KAB is as accurate as the Timeline and/or shows the effects of stylus drag…..is simply misleading.
HERE is a video showing the KAB on the Raven AC-2 both with and without stylus engaged.
The speed (33.33rpm) appears identical under both conditions and could lead one to surmise that ‘stylus drag’ is a myth?
Contrast that to the same Raven AC-2 with the TIMELINE where ‘stylus drag’ is confirmed and differs to the KAB results?

Finally….like Peterayer….I am disappointed that this Thread on the Timeline has somewhat been hijacked by those who have contributed nothing utilizing the Timeline….and who curiously seem to have an agenda against the Timeline?
I have nothing against subjectivists (being decidedly one myself)…..but this Thread is designed to remove subjectivism from the subject of turntable speed accuracy….and demonstrate objectively what has never before been documented?
It has not been claimed that perfect speed control produces the ‘perfect turntable’….but to actively ‘bash’ a scientifically objective tool and database appears suspiciously defensive?

Halcro, I applaud your efforts to document the effects of stylus drag to support the argument in objective terms. And your last post is very clear and a good explanation of what you are doing and attempting to show. My only criticism is that your hand-held camera moves enough as to be distracting and does make it more difficult to clearly see what is going on. Could you use a tripod to create a clearer video?

Interestingly, when I use the KAB strobe to set speed, it does show a very slight variation with the effect of stylus drag, which is why I have often said, that in my case with the SME 30/12, I set the speed with the stylus in the groove. I do understand your point that even this method does not answer the question as to what is happening with different amounts of drag and perhaps my table can not deal with that as effectively as your Victor does.

But, I will say that the KAB does show on my table the effects of drag as I have to adjust the controller about one click (1 hz or .01% or something for each click on the controller). The Timeline does show this more precisely and you have the added advantage to view the laser dash on a wall 20 feet away for extreme accuracy and the real story. I just contend that the Timeline operates at a level that is greater than the adjustability of my controller and my hearing to detect changes on this scale.

Instantaneous changes in pitch are another matter which I do not think that I hear in my system. Perhaps those with better training or ears could.

The 6Hz pitch increment of your Victor seems a bit course. Are these the increments by which you can adjust speed?

I also wish there were more videos added to this thread. It makes me question the confidence of some of those who criticize the TimeLine.

Accuracy and measurements are not everything, but I learned first hand last night how a speaker movement of 3/16th" away from the listener can alter the sound.

Lewm, I'm not sure if the MS motor is actually auto correcting anything, but you're right about the belt affecting the sound. Set the tension even slightly too loose and it will lose control over the platter. This isn't much of a problem if you use a rubber belt but critical with thread and even with their SF-1 belt. The speed will still read correctly using a strobe but the platter is slipping undetectably. This results in a lackluster sound, vague image and loose bass, this is why you sometimes see people switching to a different motor using rubber belts. The belt tension will make or break the sound of MS tables.