DarTZeel Preamp

Yes, it does sound familiar, Mike. That was my point.

Remember this? http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hirez&n=200129&highlight=Esoteric+Jack+Seaton&r=&session=

Jack

Jack,

regarding how my post on the Esoteric/emmlabs comparison compares to Jeff's review;

1. my post was not a formal review, it was a one-day shootout...no more, no less.

2. full disclosure. i was very forthcoming about exactly the circumstances of what i did, down to the shelves and interconnects used.....with a picture of the setup.

3. breakin. at least i addressed the issue and said what i knew.

4. i mentioned that the gear was set up according to what the importer had told my friend. i certainly did not ignore any specific insrtuctions that were given me.

i gave any reader enough info to judge for themselves exactly whether my conclusions were valid. also, i had the comments of two other listeners included.

i did not represent my 'shootout' as the last word and even questioned whether there might be something wrong with the Esoteric gear.

Mike:
I certainly hope that nobody took your "Esoteric 5-box ----Meitner shootout-----tomorrow" as the last word, although there are those out there that take the word of a man with the funny little (R) next to it as just that, regardless if it was valid or not. It is the reviewers responsibility to provide a valid report, is it not? Isn't that in question here?

Fortunately, there are folks out there that realize that DarTZeel AND Esoteric require a long break in period and that for suitable break in period AND proper isolation (including several different coupling/decoupling attempts) are required to provide a VALID comparison or report of any kind.

And, I haven't even addressed external damping with pieces like the HRS plates or cabling (and so on) to attempt system integration.

In this case, the DC compensation switch was also ignored, which anyone with first hand experience on the earlier DarTZeel can tell you, makes a dramatic difference.

Responsible journalism. It isn't a one way street determined by what you personally own.

Best,

Jack

Since anyone who disagrees with Mr. Tinn or Mr. Lavigne seems to get lambasted, lets look at JUST WHY NOBODY should give any credibility to anything Mike Lavigne or Hooper says on this thread (Mike and Andy, don't get mad yet, it's nothing about you, it's about the problematic logic of Mr. Tinn so read on).

In Mr. Tinn's vitriolic post above he states and I quote:

"When Marc begged for Soundstage to review the amplifier, I told him I was not interested because of his strong ties to LAMM and Jeff's to Boulder. I should have followed my instincts. Jeff is as slimy as I have ever read."

So from this quote we see that Jtinn's position is that Marc's ownership of Lamm gear and Jeff's ownership of Boulder gear constitute "strong ties" to those respective companies sufficient to render their credibility unfit to give an unbiased opinion on DartZeel amps. In addition, it should be noted that Marc, while knowing Vladimir Lamm and Jeff while knowing the people at Boulder are not "good friends" with them - just owners and admirers of their gear.

However, in the case of Mr. LaVigne and Hooper (Andy) Jtinn as well as Mike and Andy have admitted publicly in this forum and AA that they are "good friends" with Jonathan Tinn. To those close friendships we must add the FACT that Andy and Mike own Dartzeel amps and preamps (sold by Jtinn), Von Schweikert VR-9s (sold by Jtinn) and EMM Labs gear (sold to them by Jtinn).

Therefore, based on Jtinn's OWN logic on why we should NOT trust the opinions Marc or Jeff due to their "strong ties" (when Marc's and Jeff's are based on ownership alone and not close friendships), we CERTAINLY THEN CANNOT trust the opinions of Hooper or Mike since they not only OWN all Jtinn gear, but they are close friends as well. Now understand, I DID NOT SAY THIS, Jtinn did in his post when he implied that Marc and Jeff could NOT be trusted nor could they be unbiased due to these "strong ties!"

Most of us can see how ludicrous Jtinn's logic is. MOST reviewers own some sort of reference system. Following Jtinn's logic, they are all untrustworthy because they have strong ties due to their ownership of their particular gear. Yet Mr. Tinn routinely engages the assistance of Hooper and Mike (and any one who thinks he doesn't, doesn't know JTinn as he did the same with me many years ago) who clearly have "strong ties" to Jtinn's products.

So, either Hooper and Mike are totally non-credible due to their "strong ties" or Marc and Jeff have been unjustifiably accused by Jtinn - you can't have it both ways.

Next, Jtinn aims his attack at the Soundstage magazine when he states to me:

"As a reviewer, shouldn't you write for something other than that rag? I do not know why you would pick such a magazine. You should be able to write for almost anyone...Soundstage? Please."

Then why submit an amp for review to such a bad mag to such biased reviewers with "strong ties" to Lamm and Boulder - particularly one that isn't broken in when that break-in is apparently so crucial? Who had ultimate control over THIS situation?

First, I have no argument with a claim that some gear needs adequate break-in. The issue is this: If I AM THE MANUFACTUER OR THE DISTRIBUTOR WHO HAS AN AMP FOR WHICH BREAK-IN IS SO CRUCIAL, why in God's name would you let an amp go without being broken in - much less to a slimy bunch like the biased goons at Soundstage?

I am going to admit that my following statements about Mr. Fremer ARE hearsay from a third party who claims to know this and I will invite Mr. Fremer to correct me if I am wrong. Mr. Fremer, like many other reviewers, is a busy man. I understand that Mr. Fremer will NOT break-in a product due to those time constraints. So it is with many reviewers, they do not have the time nor the desire to wait hundreds of hours for a product to burn in. This is common knowledge. I am not saying that a reviewer may not agree to do this for the company, but, if Mr. Tinn had the reservations he said he did about the reviewer and the mag, then WHO was the negligent one? Who had control over the issue of giving an unbroken-in amp to a "biased" reviewer with "strong ties" to Boulder who wrote for a crappy mag?

I can only answer for myself and say if I had the reservations Jtinn did and thought the reviewer was biased and the mag was crappy, I know what I'd have done.

Next, MY original issue was with Hooper's categorization of Jeff's review as "utterly ridiculous" because of Hooper's reasoning that the DartZeel was a mistmatch for the Wilsons. At that point Hooper (Andy) and I [who are buddies] were having a civil debate over the isue with no vitriol or venom. I took issue with basing the "utterly ridiculous" opinion on a 100 watt amp allegedly not being powerful enough to drive the Wilsons when both the 18 watt and 110 watt Lamms can. My point being that Jeff was not negligent in assuming a 100 watt, $18,000, SS amp could drive them.

As Jtinn's post pointed out, my point was correct and the DartZeel is powerful enough to drive the Wilsons. So when Andy's categorization of Jeff's review for the reason given was proven to be wrong, the new libelous onslaught began.

Then, Mike had to come in and try to clean up JTinn's mess with a more civil explanation. But even then, did anyone notice the suspicuous disappearance of one of Mike's later posts? Mike had graciously posted a comment that, in his opinion, Jeff's review was not "wrong" it was incomplete. But that post disappeared. I will leave the readers to decide as to whether or why Mike would delete a kind and ameliorative post (or was he asked to delete it? - regardless of any subsequent posts, ask yourself who had the most to gain from deleting a post that said Jeff's review was not "wrong?).

Mike, I agree with you that cars and audio gear need break-in and if you do not follow instructions, it is your fault if something goes wrong. But Mike, your analogy misses the mark. Your analogy is aimed to OWNERS or purchasers. I would bet that if Honda was sending a car to Road and Track or Motor Trend and, if that car was like the DartZeel amp and the car would NOT perfom well unless it had 300 hours on it, you can BET Honda would put those 300 hours on it to avoid a bad review.

In closing I will stick to my original point, if I like milk chocolate and you like dark, why is one wrong and one right and why do "owners" of gear get their undies in such a bunch if someone else doesn't agree with them? When I have people over for an audio club day, if I offer them Pespi or Coke and they choose Coke when I like Pepsi, would I ever think of getting defensive over his preference? Then why is it when the Coke drinker goes into the audio room that I should be any different? As a reviewer, audiophile and music lover I am loyal to good sound and good music regardless of what gear gets me to the promised land. As you have noticed, not once have I disparaged DartZeel or any thing the posters here prefer over what I have. It simply doesn't matter as they have the gear they want and can afford as do I. My concern was a colleague was being disparaged over a review said to be "utterly ridiculous" for a reason that turned out to be fallacious (e.g, the Dart not being powerful enough to drive the Wilsons - a statement confirmed to be wrong by Jtinn himself - of course Mr. Tinn had to do that so he won't lose an entire prosective DartZeel customer base who own Wilsons or other speakers allegedly hard to drive)).

It is my opinion that this forum has been polluted by unscrupulous dealers/distributors who muddy the water of a forum designed to be a friendly sharing of ideas and civil debate to one of ulterior motives and libelous vitriol for their own profit.

I will wait for the further onslaught.

nealhood, your comparison of dartzeel amps to honda automobiles has no basis here and is essentially irrelevant. you reference the physical state of a car to the sound performance of the amp!?

as mike states above, its a very well known fact that a car performs much better after being run in. i would expect the same with a brand new amp.

i'm sure there was nothing physically wrong with the amp, whats under question here is the performance of the amp, which is spectacular. surely there can be no doubts about the amps build quality and craftsmanship which are simply stunning.