How does Berning ZH270 compare to Cary Cad211 AE ?


My system consists of Merlin VSM-MX, Cary cad 211 AE, Velodyne DD12, Aesthetix Calypso, Rega P9 with Konrapunkt C, ASR Riaa and all Valhalla cabling. I’m also experimenting with some DAC/PC stuff.

I wonder if the Berning is up to or par with Cad211AE. I’m very sensitive to hum and noise. Is the ZH270 noisier?

I have just ordered a ZH270 for test from Denmark, this because of no imports to Norway.
nr9
Back to answering Nr9's questions ...

"I have heard that the new units are supplied with better cabling and capacitor. Do you know anything about this?"

As far as recent model Berning ZH270 amplifiers being supplied with the upgraded silver wire and upgraded capacitors, I believe that is a premium option that needs to be requested when ordering the amplifier. My understanding is that most buyers have lately requested these options when ordering, based on the feedback here on Audiogon. I purchased mine used here on Audiogon with the silver wire and capacitor upgrades already installed plus the cryo-treated 6JN6 output tubes. I suggest contacting Allan Bhagan for a more definitive answer.

"I’m looking forward to receive the Berning amplifier and maybe mach up with new cables."

As for cabling choices with the Berning ZH270, I would recommend trying what you already have and experiment with the different feedback settings first followed by input tube rolling.

The primary voltage gain stage 12AT7 tubes (the pair closest to the BACK of the amplifier) are where you can most readily tailor the sound to suit your tastes. If your system leans toward the bright/lean side, then a warmer/richer sounding pair of 12AT7 tubes in the primary and/or secondary gain stages would be a good choice.

In my experience, input tube selection in the Berning ZH270 can be as dramatic as selecting cables, perhaps more so once the cables hit a certain level of quality (defined by high conductivity, plausible geometry, low dielectric, low capacitance, and SHORT LENGTH). Since the ZH270, like other good OTL designs, has such a clean and simple signal path -- the lack of interstage capacitors helps here -- and optimally biases the tubes/tube sections, different tube manufacturers tubes sound very different.

The 12AT7/ECC81 tube type was originally designed as a Radio Frequency amplifier. (Ever wonder why many of the top NOS supplies come from ex-NATO stock? They were used in military radars right through the end of the Cold War). 12AT7/ECC81 tubes can perform well in the audio frequency range, and were probably adapted slightly to do so during the post WWII high-fi boom, but all of the vintage manufacturers' designs have noticeable sonic profiles (even different designs from the same manufacturer). The "lush, rich, musical, walk in the forest, etc." sound is quite achievable with the Berning ZH270 by using the lower negative feedback settings in combination with input 12AT7/ECC81 tubes that have those same qualities (e.g. early Mullards, early RCAs, early Sylvania, etc. -- all of which are still available NOS, see my previous post in this thread for sources).

Selecting driver stage tubes (the pair closest to the FRONT of the amplifier) in the Berning ZH270 is also important -- especially to avoid doing any harm. Electrical properties do matter. The 12AV7 and 5965 types were specified for a reason: they work well and can supply current to the driver tubes at peak signal voltages approaching 600 Volts at full power. Many of the dicussions on the web regarding "better sounding" premium alternatives to the humble 12AV7 and 5965 types (e.g. the 7062/E180CC and 6829) are based on listening to these different tubes in preamps at much lower DC plate voltages and peak signal voltages.
>> 03-10-06: 711smilin
>> ......
>> My suggestion is neither, as my Dodd 120 bettered each,
>> and most others in my most important catagory. Musical.
>> Extended. Detailed. Musical.
Good to read this 711smilin! It appears that you have been listening w/ your ears! Your words above are quite diff from what you had written in that other ZH270 thread back in Nov 2005.

We each learn more every day, I try to tell it, how I hear it. I gave a valid suggestion of what I found to be true, for me. If you want more details comparing the ZH270 VS CAD 211, email me.

Good luck in your journey
Sorry to hijack this so shamelessly Nr9,but what made you decide to use the sub with your Merlins?I ask this as a Merlin VSM-MM owner who's curious.Thanks for your patience,Bob
The Merlin doesn’t have much to give from 32hz and down. It’s easy to implement the Velodyne DD12 with the speaker, because of all the possibilities with this sub.

In my room I have a peek round 50Hz and a dip around 100Hz. I know this is because of a room resonance problem. The Velodyne’s FQ seep shows me this, and it is easy to hear it to.

From the Velodyne’s FQ sweep I can actually graphically see what’s going on. I can se the Merlin’s low FQ cut off. It’s also easily to hear that the sub put some extra weight down there. The FQ is now flat from 100Hz to 15Hz.This is fun, believe me. That’s why! (Sorry my bad English.)
What might lend greater insight to this discussion is musical preferences. For midrangy acoustical, female vocal music which seems to be the darling of audiophiles and most of the show demos I've been to, SET's and low powered tube amps would be a great choice. But what if one is attempting to recreate large scale vocal, orchestral and piano music with its fast dynamic swings? Isn't this a main criteria of "musicality"?

I've heard what the Berning is capable of at Montreal last year driving Verity Parsifals and I must say as far as musical realism and natural dynamics is concerned, it was quite remarkable. Nothing at the show touched it to my ears. The Verity folks had 2 other rooms with their Ovation and Sarastro models and were stunned as well. I think it had a LOT to do with everything in that system, least being Allan Bhagan's remarkable protype Berning amp and pre-amp. To my ears I haven't heard better and only a few as memorable. The rest of the system consisted of Stillpoint stands, cones and all Stereovox cabling and the Audio Aero Capitol Mk2

The range of music was full orchestral to organ recordings to vocals which displayed the type of dynamic shadings one might hear in a live performance. Tonality and timbre reproduction were 2nd to none. There was no gravy, all music sounded as you would expect a performance would without anything additive. But these are my preferences to give guidance to where I'm coming from. SET's and low powered tube amps are great for certain types of music, or do we eventually end up listening to the type of music that accomodates the addictive sound we hear with these amps?

The Berning is indeed like a microscope but it seems a bit over the top to say it isn't musical if musical is to mean the same as musical realism. My guess is that there are probably other issues with the system, at least that is my experience. I have owned the amp for 4 years and have compared it head to head with many amps out with the Joule being the only real temptation with Merlin speakers. There are more than a few that could own any amp they want and own the Berning out of choice not pricepoint.

This hobby is for sure a matter of taste.