Can tube amps give true high end bass?

Can tube amps give true high end bass?

Let's assume the speakers are optimally set up in the room (bery few are). Also, that "hi end" bass means as close to the original as possible.
Given these premises, of course a tube CAN produce bass...

It's not primarily a tube vs. ss question. It's a matter of application.

Comments such as

I also have an original master of a jazz trio recorded with very expensive mikes and no compression. The bass sounds best with my SET

can make sense: the set offering very linear amplification (within its limitations) will obviously sound superior to a less linear amplification circuit...

Keep in mind that tubes offer the advantage of a (limited) linear amplification range, whereas transistors need some feedback to stabilise their operation.

The common misconception is that ONE amplifier, be it tube or ss should be called upon to amplify signals in linear fashion going fm dc to daylight, and drive a speaker, in turn expected to reproduce sounds from dc to daylight in a linear fashion...

In an ideal world, we'd have amps for mid-bass down and amps for the rest of the spectrum -- but we don't.

So of course we are ultimately left with the often frustrating task of having to try out infinite spkr-amp combos in hope of striking the magical set-up -- be it tube or ss.

Audiobb, I am surprised the 300B sounded better than the Cambridge consider the fact that you were using B&W 602. Had you been using appropriate speakers, you may find your 300B capable of the same (or better) bass than the Cambridge.

+++ But these 300B monos could be improved with better output transformer +++

Possibly, but it's bad would most certainly be improved by speaker presenting a more benign load. As an analogy, think of using a 300B of B&W equivalent to diving a Ferrari on the beach ... not very smart.

Regards
Paul

It's so hard not to generalize here. I've heard a lot of systems where the bass did seem a bit bloated or sluggish with tube gear, but, when that is certainly not the case with all tube gear. All of the very best sounding systems I've heard were driven by tube gear and of all different sorts -- single ended, low-powered pushpull (particularly based on Western Electric components), and OTLs.

I don't know, and don't really care if the bass went super low or if the system was capable of really prodigious output, what I do know and care about is whether the tonal quality of bass instruments is right. A lot of systems touted for their bass quality actually don't deliver properly tuneful bass.

Jmaldonado, can you please explain why you feel a tube amplifier needs at least 40wpc to good bass?

I know that statement is patently false as I have seen published numbers of a Decware 2wpc amp going down to about 10Hz at –3db, but I would like to hear your spin on how you correlate frequency response to output power.

Regards
Paul

T_bone, as amfibious said, I was talking about damping factor. This has been one of the big discussion themes since the 70's, but apparently it keeps being ignored by most audiophiles. Regardless, it will always be important because it predicts how good is the amp's ability to generate a bass fundamental without the speaker circuit altering its amplitude. Why this happens? The question has to do with the current vectors created in a third order (or bigger) circuit, such as that found in all speakers. It's pure math, but you can measure it and of course listen to it. It manifiests itself as a "boomy" bass at a certain favorite band of frequencies which depends on how the speaker was designed, and how well (or bad) the amp can control it.

Why do I think solid state amplifiers have the advantage? Transistors are low-voltage, high-current devices, whereas tubes are the opposite, i. e. high-voltage, low-current devices. Virtually all speakers in production today are low impedance transducers, varying from 8 ohms down to 1 ohm. THEY NEED CURRENT TO WORK! By nature, they work best with transistors due to their lower output impedances, and better damping factors. Besides, in order to equal a solid-state amplifier current capability, you would need a battery of 30 or 40 tubes in parallel (remember Julius-Futterman OTLs?). That's why most tube design depend on an output transformer in order to compensate for the disparity between tubes and speakers. However, IMHO transformers bring even worst evils than they cure. They introduce even more coloration, hysteresis distortion, they attenuate the lower bass, they introduce phase-shifting, etc. The situation is just hopeless.

I have no doubt that somebody will say "But I like the bass of my tube amplifiers better than a solid-state's. They really kick in ________ recording!". That's OK. It's just a personal preference, a very romantic one... ;)

Regards,