Does anyone or does everyone pay retail price?

Agree with Stanwal. The margins in the industry when mid to high end audio was in demand when people had lots of disposable moeny to spend kept them going.

However, even then, most retailers were moving to 'custom installations' where they can charge $100/man hr to install a system and the money is being made there...not on the components per se. Within this economy, more retailers ae moving in this direction to survive and are now carrying lesser priced components that revove around a home theater set-up.

Carrying high end 2 channel audio and selling for 20 point margin will put a retailer out of business in short order. The margin is too low and many people come look, listen then buy used or where they can get another 5% off. So don't be surpirsed if your dealer doesn't have the stock they used to; they can't afford the carrying costs or have the inventory sit there and if they sell it for a 20% discount, they get in trouble with the OEM and can't make enough to stay in business.

Some audio components are only 30 points and some high end cable OEMs are only 45-50 points. But most HT customers just don't care on the cables and run the cheapest thing they can to het it all hooked up and ae willing to pay $100/man hr for the installation which can really add up to serious money.

The worst of all OEMs are those that protect territories and prices among individual dealers but then have a special program for internet sellers that often do cut prices. I won't name names.

Standard mark-up in the industry is 40-50%. There's lots of overhead in 'bricks and mortor' stores and audiophiles are very cautious with there purchases. A lot of people have gone into the retail side because they love being a part of the high-end scene. Business failure rate is incredibly high. It's hard to believe that anyone would pay retail these days, unless it's for a lower price tweek of some kind. I suppose that some established dealers will survive the recession, but sadly most will find this to be the 'last straw'. Inventory 'fire sale' will probably then be made available on a site such as AudioGon.

Kirkus, thanks for addressing my questions!

And mark-up is only part of it. Collecting sales taxes are an extra burden on the local dealer, 6% in my state. The local dealer doesn't have a chance with many of us.

Add the 6% plus MSRP, I can usually get at least 15% plus the 6% sales tax from mail order/out of state dealer (not collecting out-of-state sales taxes), the local dealer has to give me 21% off to compete, not really fair to him. The added personal service, possible auditioning has to be worth the extra 6% to you.

I'm not making any judgement calls about state sales taxes and/or dealer markups, I'm simply bringing to light consumer considerations. Dealers seem to have it tough, state sales taxes, likely higher overhead costs, contracts stipulating no out-of-state sales all serve to make life tough for them.

I bought my system about six years ago. The front end (TT, arm, catridge and CDP) and the speakers were new from a dealer. The electronics (amp, preamp, phono amp) were used from Audiogon. The dealer set everything up and provided excellent service for which I paid MSRP. In the six years since, I have upgraded the electonics with items found here on Audiogon.