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Lost that "Tube Magic". Can you help?

Greetings and thanks in advance for your sharings.

My first tube amp(only a few years ago) was an H.H. Scott LK-72B with all original 7591 tubes. The thing was just plain MAGICAL to my ears. It would impart the same character to just about any speakers I paired it with... Theils... older B&W's... Paradigms...

Pardon me if my words fall short as I've only been at this hobby for several years: The top end was not as extended as some and bottom end was a bit flabby but the thing sounded good on all types of music and soared on vocals and solitary instruments. Tones had a density... a harmonic richness... an aliveness... that made me sit up and listen. There was often an "air" around vocalists and instruments that wasn't so much about 3-dimensional soundstage placement as it was about something "other dimensional(for lack of better words)" Sometimes the sharpness, the "splat" of a horn note from a Cassandra Wilson album would compel me to drop a project in another room and come running into the listening room with my mouth hanging open. Vocalists could sometimes be hauntingly present and perhaps larger than life (if somehow inaccurately so). I haven't experienced that since- Not in showrooms nor in my own system.

The Scott developed some coughs and sputters within a few months and I had most of the caps replaced. Magic gone. Still a very nice sounding unit.. bass was more extended and tauter... over all sounded "cleaner" but a lot more... well... solid state.

I'm thinking "I now know what this 'tube magic' people have been talking about is". I decided I would pull out all the stops(for my budget) and buy a modern, reliable, positively reviewed piece of tube equipment that could be a lasting centerpiece to all of my other equipment changes(lasting?? Laughing at myself here). I bought a Cayin A-100T with newish Electro-Harmonix KT-88s and an assortment of NOS preamp tubes. This was not it. Perfectly black background, gobs of power, entended highs and lows(more low end control than most of the quality solid-state equipment I've owned(McCormack, Proceed, Counterpoint)), but missing that magic. To my ear it sounded rather solid-state-ish but without the drive in particular. I tried it with a number of speakers and this overall character remained.

Lastly I tried an Onix Melody SP-3. Overall I found it more musically satisfying that the Cayin in that it had better pacing(drive) and just sounded more musical to my ear. Instruments on the Cayin sounded more accurate but the whole picture cohesion was more there(for me) with the Onix. This is a great amp(especially for the money) as many reviews atest to, but it was still missing that magic for me. Again, a bit too solid-state-ish if you will. I played with replacing some of the preamp tubes with some good quality NOS tubes to some good effect but had the sense that tube changes were not going to change the character enough. I tried this amp with a number of speakers too.

"Why don't you just play with capacitor and tube changes in another H.H. Scott if you like the sound so much?" That's a good question and I may end up going that route in the end but I would really like to have something that is:
1. More modern and reliable. I like a more modern look too.
2. Has a remote control(I can hear the snickering already ;) .
3. Perhaps has even more of that magic than the Scott. Despite the magic, the Scott lacked a transparency that my other tube amps have had. Better extension and control would be welcome too if it's possible to have my cake and eat it too.

Also:
I would -really- like to spend less than $1K if possible. I would prefer an integrated solution.
Tone controls would be nice(not absolutely necessary).
I have not settled on speakers at this point either.

I've heard a few tube pieces that didn't have that solid-state character but they were rather "soft and mushy" and lacked the aliveness I'm wanting. It certainly could have been the setups.

Anyone have experience with what I'm talking about?
Do you have better ways to describe it?
Is this a characteristic of older tube equipment in general? H.H. Scotts in general? 7591 tubes? All OS tube setups? Can you recommend a modern, remote controlled, sub $1K solid state integrated that might fit the bill? Any solid state equipment out there that would really have the qualities I'm looking for?

Again, thanks much.
128x128eyediver
ghostrider45
449 posts
 
To describe an amp by saying it "would impart the same character to just about any speakers I paired it with... Theils... older B&W's... Paradigms..." sounds like a description of coloration to me. Granted, some colorations can by pretty addicting, but they aren't musical truth.

It sounds like Eyediver is finding that newer gear has less of this coloration than the old Scott equipment, and that aging capacitors (with drifting values) were a major contributor to the colored sound in his original gear.

BTW, I go through this sort of thing with my tubed guitar amps. The difference is that they are prized for their colorations.
fmpnd
481 posts
 
Eyediver,

WOW! Lot's of varied and good suggestions. I had an old Scott amp long ago and will confirm, as other have noted, that a Conrad Johnson MV-55 I had 15 years ago reminds me of the Scott and the MV-55 is still one of those amps that just makes "music". Not the last word in bass slamm or linearity but that's not what you are looking for anyway. It had much of the same sound you seem to be looking for with a few of the traits you like about the Onix or Cayin and you can tube roll to customize the sound further to your liking.

Just my $.02
pedrillo
560 posts
 
I too just went to an old amp cj premier 4, and wow it sounds more like music but it isn't as accurate as my ss simaudio w-5???
I too was confused!
But after reading this thread I realize I wasn't losing my marbles.
I would also take a good look at the chinese made audio experience a2se preamp, it's proving to be a killer preamp.
And also make sure the source is good, that is imperitive for a good sound!
greggdeering's avatar
greggdeering
45 posts
 
I'll never forget when I first heard my Fisher 500C (7591 tubes) - It was the magic we assume brought our forefathers to audio. But as has been said above, it is really colored detail-obscuring lovely grunge. But who cares, Audio is about boxes that reproduce sound, the degree of approximation to music is subjective. So stick with the sound you like it will be much more fun and rewarding than worrying about audiophile stuff. Though I never take my own advice, I love the hard road,

The best option might be to have some one work on the Scott - with the intention of doing a little as possible.

The other is investigating real SET amps, a 2A3 has a different magic. A lot of audiophile have gone down that road (I did). I have a couple of music loving friends who are totally hooked. There are trade offs, but it beats SS - if you love the warmth and comfort of Scott, the most reliable way to get it and keep it is with SET.

Good luck,

Gregg
mapman's avatar
mapman
22,179 posts
 
FWIW I listen to a lot of old vinyl from back when these vintage tube amps ruled. They sound better than ever on my current system these days. The only tubes are in the ARC pre-amp and phono stage. The ARC tube sound does not really sound noticeably like tubes, more like smooth but detailed SS.

I also have an mhdt Paradisea tube DAC and an mhdt COnstantine SS DAC. With the tube DAC (with stock GE tube) and the ARC, there is noticeable tube warmth and midrange bloom as they say. With a NOS TUng Sol, the sound is more like the SS Constantine. I like the Constantine best with the ARC tube pre. The warm bloomy tube sound is alluring but in the end artificial sounding to me.

DEfinitely not all tube gear is created equal. Different strokes for different folks. I've even been known to go for different strokes from day to day. Variety is the spice of life after all!
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