What is wrong with negative feedback?


I am not talking about the kind you get as a flaky seller, but as used in amplifier design. It just seems to me that a lot of amp designs advertise "zero negative feedback" as a selling point.

As I understand, NFB is a loop taken from the amplifier output and fed back into the input to keep the amp stable. This sounds like it should be a good thing. So what are the negative trade-offs involved, if any?
solman989
The source degeneration and drain load resistor are indeed identical mechanisms, and both occur in "real time", it must because the same current flows through both resistors! (see Kirchoff's laws) Yes, they do behave differently, but this is simply because the output impedance is higher from the drain than from the source. In both cases, the bandwidth available for the negative feedback is defined by the gate capacitance of the mosfet, but when it's driven by the higher impedance of the drain, the rolloff of course starts sooner (higher impedance driving the same capacitance).

There are a couple of problems I see with this. First, we have a capacitance involved, so there is a time issue associated with the related phase issues of that capacitance. If we have a series of these circuits together, we will be able to measure a delay time to it. So- where does it come from? It probably the circuit itself, ergo it has a delay time too.

And as far as I'm concerned, if one condemns the use of negative feedback, and hasn't gone through the process of figuring out where the poles and zeros in the response fall, and analyzing the phase margin . . . they simply haven't a leg to stand on.

And if one *did* go through that exercise, and still finds the feedback to be detrimental, what then?

I think I have, several times. They are the result of circuits that have the following:
-Nonlinear open-loop transfer functions that cause both low- and high-order distortion
-Topologies (i.e. differential, push-pull) that are more effective at cancelling even-order distortion products than odd-order
-Feedback (and hence closed-loop linearity) that decreases as frequency increases.
Put the three together, and you have a system that enhances higher-order, and odd-order distortion products. But the root cause is NOT the feedback.

This **sounds** like an argument for adding feedback to an SET, although I suspect that its not. But an SET can lack the issues above, yet still be degraded by the use of feedback. I myself use fully differential circuits and have to jump through a lot of hoops to prevent odd-ordered generation (we wind up with the 3rd but none of the higher orders) but otherwise our amps don't have the issues you present above either. Yet when feedback is added, increased odd ordered harmonic distortion can be measured (although its tricky as the increase is very slight; OTOH it does not take much as the human ear uses odd orders to gauge volume so tiny amounts are instantly audible).

Frankly, this last quote seems to indicate that feedback should not be used as the circuits that have these issues would seem like something to be avoided.

Of course a complete audio system has a Chaotic behavior. But amplifiers do too. If you look at the formula for feedback, its nearly identical to the feedback formula for classic chaotic models. IOW, we have a strange attractor that models the amplifier's behavior under feedback, we have the other conditions of classic chaotic systems: if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... BTW, 'dense orbit' refers to the strange attractor. If you look at a simple pendulum, it is a classic example of a chaotic system and we have been using them for mechanical timing mechanisms for several hundred years. It is often the utter simplicity of chaotic systems that is what throws people off- why they initially don't want to look at things as being Chaotic. BTW its important to understand that the term 'Chaotic' is not the same as the typical dictionary meaning.
You guys are in way over my head! I can sort of follow the tech talk but have no way to translate that into results regarding actual sound quality to expect via the various design approaches.

I'm curious to see the bottom line in the end ie what key points relating to feedback and sound quality you two agree and disagree on. Perhaps also if there are any amps most might be familiar with that are good representatives of how the different technical approaches sound.
That might actually be simpler- the proof in the pudding. Kirkus and I have had plenty of exchanges in the past and I have always respected his demeanor, but at the same time I do not think there is anything that I could say that would change his mind- he clearly knows his book larnen'.

OTOH, I'm pretty sure that I'm likely to stay put too. If I had not spent so much time doing this, I might be easier to convince.

So maybe, we choose the amps from the two camps that we think are the best examples of feedback and no feedback.
The tech talk is over my head too, but I'll say that the best amp I've heard of late that uses feedback is the Music Reference RM-10 MkII.
Atmasphere,

I suspect it would be hard to set up any meaningful comparison of an amp alone in that an amp cannot produce music alone without speakers. The results could vary widely depending on speakers used, personal preferences, and all the usual culprits that result in different strokes for different folks.

My gut feel is that as you say, its all in the implementation and there are many ways to make tasty soup.