12ax7 vs 5751

If clarity, 3d soundstaging, and dynamic punch is your thing, the ultimate tube for those qualities, to me, is the Telefunken ECC803S. But, it can be, in the wrong application, quite lean and analytical sounding (bass is very tight and fast, but not full sounding). It also has a reputation for having an extremely long usable life (something I am counting on).

Also, because of the expense, there are fakes floating around. Supposedly, the fakes are tubes with similar looking internal structures that have been given new markings on the glass. I have not heard of any fakes having the correct embossed in the glass Telefunken diamond on the bottom of the tube, so that might be the way to tell.

I have heard that some Tesla ECC803S tubes are also quite good, but, there are some newer Tesla ECC803S that are not that good and have a much shorter life than the Telefunken tubes (I have no personal experience with the Tesla tubes).

My phonostage came from the manufacturer with 1960's RCA 12AX7s that are also on the punchy and clear side of the spectrum (as opposed to warm and rich sounding). They were decent, but I prefer both the Telefunken 12AX7s and the ECC803S.

hiya larryi,

i`ve had a chance to have a proper listen to the ei elites. played my usual cd`s dave gilmour on an island, adele 21, steve hillage green and also had a listen to pink floyds remastered wish you were here. i got the tubes this morning so i had to listen at more conservative levels but this evening i was able to crank the volume up a little to more decent levels that i usually play at. all i can say is wow!!! i know i hark on about hearing more things that i`ve never heard before but this is startling! at the beginning of dave gilmours track "then i close my eyes", there`s sound effects that sounds like someone walking up to a car and opening and closing the car door then walking back. it`s a brilliant sound effect but with these tubes i also hear a group of people talking. i`ve never heard that on any other of the tube combinations i`ve had so far. and what i really like is there is a warmth and smoothness to the whole range of sounds as well as the extra clarity. the weight of everything is just right. this midband is just superb. there`s decent soundstage height too. dave gilmour is no longer 4ft tall!!! the bottom end is outrageous! bass goes lower than whale poo now! there`s a really gorgeous warmth to the bass too and there`s texture not only to bass notes but everything at every frequency. listening to steve hillages cd green has high frequencies like i`ve never heard before. this cd is amazing to check your high frequencies and it`s not a half bad recording considering it came out in 1978 i think. synthesiser notes just hang in their own space in the soundstage. this cd is so magical sounding. some of adeles tracks have such amazing bass drive. there`s a lot of piano work going on in her cd and the weight of each key is just perfect. these tubes appear to have brought extended highs and lows to the table with everything in between just right. i`ll go as far to say the soundstage is freaky! my brain computes that all the artists are there right in front of you in their own space but my eyes can`t see them. i`m also wondering if and how the sound might change as the tubes break in. i keep thinking that the sound just can`t get any better. that`s what i thought using the psvanes and then the jan philips 5751`s! and now using these ei elites it has completely changed the sound that comes out of my speakers. these tubes have been an upgrade! and a huge one! i still have those ge 5751wa`s on their way and they`re really supposed to be something quite special. also the black treasure kt88-z tubes are really supposed to be something that are currently on their way through the post to me.

i have to say too that not only is the amp a real cracker but the speakers i have are really something too! every change i`ve made, this combination lets that change be heard good or bad. mostly mindblowing in this case! the speakers are quad 12L2`s and they are real chameleons. they change sound with every change i make. amazing!

if i ever come across the telefunkens at a decent price i may well go for them. i think my tube rolling spending spree better come to an end before i have to sell the furniture to pay the bills! the journey to where i am soundwise on my system has been probably the most fun i`ve ever had! i so wish i`d discovered tube amplifiers years ago. i`ve been missing so much! and i still have a little tube rolling to do when the new ones get here too. i cannot imagine the sound getting any better! but as i say......i`ve said that one before! more than once!

Congrats, you found that special tube synergy with your system. So many folks never make it.

hiya mikirob, it`s a hell of an experience. i wish i could say i achieved it by skill but really it was pure luck! the only thing now is i hope the kt88-z`s add further improvements rather than being too much of a good thing. they must be due any day now too

update for the ei elites....

ok one of them (the right side) has turned very slightly microphonic but it`s very slight and not really noticeable and certainly doesn`t affect the performance.

and now for the good stuff! i have about 45 hours on them now and i can`t believe i`m saying this but the sound has improved immensely! the punchy deep bass has turned into a punchy deeper bass with slam when required! the warmth in the bass is just superb. the bass is as seductive as you can get!

the noise floor is even lower! on dave gilmours cd on the track "a pocket full of stones", when he first starts singing there is just his voice accompanied by a piano. both the voice and piano come out of nothingness, blackness, darkness i dunno how to describe it but it`s amazing! you can hear a pin drop. thats the effect it gives you.

the highs are just as high but have more presence as does the midband. voices now sound just a tad more forward than what they were and are just as detailed and deep. by that i mean more depth to the voice in the soundstage.

and on to the soundstage!i said before when i installed the tubes that i initially found the soundstage freaky. i meant that in a very good positive way. well now the soundstage is super freaky!!! much more depth, much more seperation, much more 3 dimentional, more expression and amazing presence and air around that presence. voices sound closer to me in the soundstage. this must have a lot to do with how the ei elites interact with the brimar 6sn7gty/cv1988 and the rca grey glass vt231`s in this amplifier. it is just pure magic.

there`s still no sign of my black treasure kt88-z`s or the ge 5751`s yet. i can`t wait to get them now to see how they fair in this amp. so there`ll be more to come soon :)

i don`t know where these tubes stand in the 12ax7 world of tubes but in this amp they`re incredible