2. amps-preamps
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Need info on amp rec. for these Thiel cs2.4's

Ok, this is my last attempt before I have Crutchfield take the speakers back.

let me say that when things on these speakers sound right it trully is amazing. On most other average CD recordings though the speakers sound tends towards the brighter side. I just recently purchased a NAD M51 DAC and it helped and is a first rate piece of equipent - I have a review on Audiogon if your interested. However, while Im generally happy with the speakers I think either I need to change the amp or get a CJ preamp - ET2 (or similar). Im using the NAD to drive the Amp (a Vincent sp331 - 150 @ 8 ohms and 300 at 4 ohms) directly so no preamp at this time. I hooked up my friends 5082 Adcom for kicks and the treble is good there, but there is no space or dimension to the music. Thus my thoughts on changing the amp. Its flat. He also has a VTL 2.5 preamp that helps by the virtue that it is a tube piece and helps plump up the mids while softening the highs (thus my thoughts of CJ preamp). However sticking a piece of equipment in between the source and amp seems like a backwards step.

Im dedicated to at most $3500 dollars to bring the system in line for the hights. Problem is I have nowhere near me that I can go to listen to the equipment before purchase so its all online for me, so I'd need to be able to puchase it that way. Im not a big fan of used but I could go there if necessary.

Some thoughts on amps:

Channel Islands d200 MKII
Parasound Halo 21

Preamp thoughts:

CJ ET-2
Rogue 99

What my thoughts on what the amp should do is be warm, solid state, not emphsize the highs obviously, balanced or unbalanced, and have at leat near if not more that 300w into 4 ohms. I've heard dampening is important with Thiels but not sure what the numbers mean.

Please any thoughts would be appreciated on my situation here.

My urgency in this is I have till May 17th before I need to tell Crutchfield to take them back.

Now I do really like the speakers and I know many people will tell me to do just that - they are so close to being "there"! But let's use that as a last resort on info here b/c I know I have that option.
last_lemming
doggiehowser
672 posts
 
I have had good partnerships between my Thiel CS2.4SEs and my Bel Canto REF1000Ms. If I had the choice, I would have preferred the REF500Ms. They use 3rd gen ICE modules and seem a little less lean than the REF1000Ms.
djohnson54
396 posts
 
I'd be willing to bet that the Thiels will sound much more balanced after they break in. My Merlins sounded very bright and tizzy until they got some hours on them. Now they are VERY smooth and the bass is incredible. They hadn't been played very much right before I bought them. I suspect the woofers had to loosen up so that the balance between lows, mids and highs was correct. The tweeter has calmed down and gotten smoother too. Unfortunately, break-in time and dealers' return policy don't always match up. Search the forums for break-in time on the 2.4s and play them as much as you can (even if you're not listening). You're new class D amp should make that economical.
mapman's avatar
mapman
22,183 posts
 
ref1000m's are lean and mean, no doubt (damping factor of 1000 as I recall), yet also most muscular and articulate. There is no flab in the sound whatsoever FWIW. That was the first thing I noticed when I first hooked them up. That might be a good or bad thing depending on the speakers need for damping. Some might endup sounding too lean, depending on personal preference.

THe ref1000ms are the perfect mate to the OHM Walsh speakers, especially my larger 5s, which are my mains. I think they are are a very good match with my smaller monitors also (Dynaudio and Triangle) however I could see where some might prefer less damping (more like a tube amp) with smaller monitors or even floorstanders with smaller drivers that might not be able to let loose as needed with such high damping. A damping factor of even 50 on a SS amp is generally considered to be fairly high and sufficient in many cases.

My impression of the Thiels is that they are a difficult load to drive similar to the larger OHMs, and a natural candidate for a Class D amp accordingly, though my recollection from hearing Thiels in the past is that they may tend towards the leaner side of things soundwise to start. I still think a highly damped Class D amp could deliver some very unique and extraordinary results with Thiels, similar to what I observe with Dynaudio. The BCs smooth and fatigue free top end could be a match made in heaven. I would expect similar things from the Channel Islands, but have not heard those so cannot say for sure.
last_lemming OP
638 posts
 
Well, I only have a couple hours of listening time on the amps right ouf the box. But the bass is better. What im ultimately interested in when it comes to how "D" amps work is if there is a loss of information like some say when comparing Vinyl and CD players. The Class D amps work a the principle of an on/off nature similar to how cd players work with 0's and 1's. My understanding is that class D amps use PWM (I think I have the acronym right) thus it would seem their sound is "interpreted" if you will just like CD's have to "interpret" between the bits. Is my thinking right on this or am I off base? Im I losing audio information in a digital amp? My understanding of the CI D200's is that the switching is analog, but the on/off concept still remains.

Also, Im driving the amps right from the NAD DAC and its working great, the highs are really nice and not bright at all so far.
mapman's avatar
mapman
22,183 posts
 
"My understanding is that class D amps use PWM (I think I have the acronym right) thus it would seem their sound is "interpreted" if you will just like CD's have to "interpret" between the bits. Is my thinking right on this or am I off base? "

I believe you are correct that Class D amps use PWM (Pulse WIdth Modulation).

I'd say it is accurate to say that the sound of any amp (Class D or otherwise) is "interpreted". The mechanisms used by different types of amps vary however.

"I'm I losing audio information in a digital amp?"

Since no amplifier is perfect, I would say yes, however, again same true of ANY amp design.

Class D amp technology is relatively new and innovative. From what I hear I would say Class D amps are competitive soundwise with other good amps out there these days, perhaps even with some at much higher price points. Like most things, there is no definitive "best". It all depends..... In the end, you just gotta do your homework and trust your own ears.
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