Tube guy gets a B&K: tubes vs solid state


You folks probably already know all this, but maybe these observations will be helpful for some newbie... (tubey newbie?).

I've been looking to understand how to improve the sound of my tube system and decided to try a SS amp as a point of reference, and potentially as a permanent switch. Thanks to many here, the desirable choice seemed to be a McCormack DNA. But being unsure I decided to take a cheaper approach and bought a B&K ST-140 ($202 on ebay + $27 shipping), version 2, toroidal transformer. It is like new. After swapping back and forth with my Marantz 8B I have the following observations. Rest of system is stock CJ PV-5, ProAc One SCs, ordinary car audio speaker cable (next upgrade), all Kimber PBJ interconnects.

The issues I have with my system are a desire for tighter bass, more openness, less of a congested presentation. I got my system in 95 or so, and did some comparisons to SS then, but sometimes you have to relearn old lessons.

1) I am amazed at how pretty and smooth a sound the B&K has. It is a "lighter" sound, more even and polite or reserved, and the various instruments don't seem to be congesting together. For a $200, 20 year old amp, it is quite amazing.

2) The sound of tubes is different from the sound of solid state. It's difficult to overstate the significance of this. The tube sound is palpable and dimensional. I knew this before, and these have to be the most commonly used terms but it's true. But it's a bit stunning to hear it again.

3) I would never be happy with solid state because no matter how pretty, it does not have this tangible substance, palbability, or dimensionality. It is key to enjoyment of the sound. It is sonic sculpture versus sonic painting.

4) I expected the bass to be deeper, larger, and tighter with the B&K. At first blush I thought it was. But after several comparisons, it is none of these. It is stronger and...tighter doesn't seem like the right word but it is as tight with the 8B. More importantly it is more real, because of the palpability, and that makes it sound more accurate or defined. On recordings with fuzzy bass, though, I think the even, clear, laid-back presentation of the B&K renders the bass with more seeming definition whereas the 8B seems to be trying to make it full and tangible but having nothing to work with, it just puts forth a kinda warm and soft bassiness.

5) I now believe the comment I read here, that a SS amp with a tube preamp will not give the dimensionality and palpability of tubes. One needs a tube amp for this.

I no longer feel I need tighter bass; I see it differently and very much like the bass I have with the 8B. I do think I could use more openness, a bit better high end (PV-5s, I'm told here, have rolled-off highs), and a less congested sound when the band gets busy, which somehow seems to be linked to the palpability or substance of the sound. It's like the thick palpability is a bit too thick and things get congested together.

I'm not sure whether changes to the amp or preamp will solve those, but the experience with the B&K suggests the next move is the preamp. I'm trying to decide whether to pick up something less romantic/lush like an ARC or VTL, or to send my PV-5 off for upgrades, or buy a newer CJ. At this point not knowing which will be the more effective it's a coin toss unless a killer deal comes along. I'm getting more reluctant though to alter the nature of my PV-5. Since getting back into hifi I have never seen one for sale.

Any suggestions or thoughts on my next move would be most welcome.

Jim
river251
Jim, I agree with Swampwalker that the preamp is the heart of the system, we both use VAC preamps, though his is several steps up from mine. I am using a VAC Auricle preamp which also has a great built in phono stage. I paid about $1150 for it with some special tubes several months ago. VAC, like ARC, seem to be some of the most revealing tube preamps out there. I would say that ARC is the most revealing, while the VAC is a tad more musical, yet still very revealing.

The BAT gear that I've owned I had a love/hate relationship with. I've owned 9 pieces of BAT gear, obviously I love the sound, but I've had mechanical issues with all 3 BAT preamps that I've owned. No issues with the 2 CDP's, 2 phono stages or 2 amps. BAT sound is hard to characterize. I would say that it is very powerful and dynamic, but a tad on the warm side. Certainly not as warm as CJ or Cary, but warm none the less. However, I've also seen many who claim that BAT equipment is bright. So maybe BAT is just perfectly neutral, as many find it dark, many find it bright and many find it just right, I don't know.

Sonic Frontiers gear I would avoid. I agree with most others from what I've read in that Sonic Frontiers will sound as close to solid state as any tube gear out there. In fact, so close that I've heard many SS units that better them. I prefer tube gear that sounds like tubes over tube gear that sounds like SS.

A word of caution, be careful that you do not go too far in your search for more resolution. You have higher resolution speaker cables coming in and you are looking for a higher resolution preamp. You still should be OK, but in my experiences, one can go too far, as you are now experiencing with too much warmth and musicality. You can also get so much transparency that the music becomes sterile and uninvolving. The key is to find a nice balance, one where you can listen for a long period of time with no sense of falling asleep or grinding your teeth.

Cheers,
John
You're kidding yourself if you don't think the amp is the heart of the system. Yeah sure, you don't want too much transparency. Or God forbid, excessively low distortion. Get real.
No, the preamp sets the stage for any amp that follows and as others have said is the heart of a system. It is the one piece that ties it all together. A great tube preamp makes all decent amps sound rather good in a well matched system. Class D, A, AB or whatever sound good with a great preamp.

Matching the amp to the speakers is critical, once this is done the preamp sets the sonic stage for the entire system in many ways. It sets the sonic personality and overall tone based on my experience.
Csontos, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, just as others are entitled to disagree with you.
I too disagree with Csontos. You certainly can overdue detail, emphasizing the edges of notes, exposing too much hf grain, instead of a good balance with tone and warm weight.

I believe its also possible that the tolerable limit of detail may be reached more quickly with lesser electronics.