Best AV processors for under $10K

03-09-13: Dbphd
Kal, what is bass management? Are you saying the sub is only activated by LFE? What's the role of crossover? I thought when you set a crossover frequency in the Oppo menu, frequencies below the crossover would be sent to the SW output with LPCM conversion but not if the signal is maintained as DSD. With digital output, presumably setting a crossover in the processor menu sends frequencies below the crossover to the sub output of the processor.

You are confusing the issue. If you set up bass management in the Oppo, you have added it to the PCM signals and the processor cannot distinguish what is LFE and what is rerouted bass.

I've seen few 2.1 or 5.1 SACDs with an explicit LF channel. So please inform us. What is bass management?

The .1 in 5.1/2.1/etc. is LFE. It has nothing to do with bass management. LFE is a distinct channel. Bass management is a process which you describe above and is independent of LFE (although both come out of the subwoofer). Both 5.0 and 5.1 recordings can be bass managed although only the latter has an LFE channel.

Dtc,
Your explanation comports exactly with my understanding, with the one caveat that the essence of DSD, Direct Streamed Digital, is purist, so the digital signal is unlikely to be manipulated.

Kr4 (Kal),
I don't understand your first paragraph; your second paragraph comports with my understanding.

Audiooracle,
I think the Cary Cinema 12 has the same problem as the 11a in that it does not distinguish between DSD and PCM so there is no bass management with digital input even if you select PCM. The 11a, and presumably the 12, is a fine sounding processor that, according to Michael Fremer's review, needs no passthrough to a separate preamp.

Many DSD users are purist, who think that changing the signal to LPCM degrades the sound. Jdub39, on the other hand, thinks the 8801 bass management and room correction is a great improvement over the straight DSD sound.

That is a long winded overview. Fortunately, there are lot of very good engineers who can make all this magic happen. The mathematics of it is pretty complicated.

Just to clarify my stance here, I'm a DSD purist at heart and for 2/ch DSD I use no conversion to PCM, the comparison I was speaking of are on the merits of taking that DSD signal and preserving its sonic merits when its converted to PCM for additional processing by the 8801 with Audyssey in particular for multich playback of the same source. Its the listening experience at the heart of my opinion and the trade off of that conversion to PCM with the additional processing out weighs listening to straight DSD in terms of sonics and sheer "High fidelity" which is our pursuit, this is a first for me and as you say " there are lot of very good engineers who can make all this magic happen. The mathematics of it is pretty complicated".

Its a great time to be an Audiophile !

Jdub39 - Not sure I followed that. Are you saying you listen to 2 channel DSD with no conversion but you also take your 2 channel DSD and convert it to 5.1 and add room correction? And that you prefer the converted 5.1 with room correction? If so, what do you use to get to 5.1 Sorry if I misunderstood.

03-09-13: Dbphd
As I understand it, DSD does not convey information for bass management; you need to convert to LPCM if you want bass management.

It comes down to semantics. It is incorrect to say that DSD does not convey information for bass management since that implies that there are codes in it to guide the application of bass management. That is not true. All that is contained in it is the music information as apportioned by the producer. By the same token, neither do PCM sources convey information for bass management.

Bass management is applied by the user and, in the current state of the art, consumer products are limited to applying bass management to PCM signals (although it is possible to do this in DSD). If you apply bass management to PCM (or to PCM converted from DSD), you are re-allocating the signals to each channel differently than they were and you might say these arrangements are bass-managed but there is still no information for bass management.