Speakers with fullness and weight?

Midfinder92,
The irony is that the thin and lean sound(analytical) touted as accuracy and neutral is as you discovered, inaccurate. Your ears/ brain were not fooled. When components sound natural and realistic you'll immediately recognize it based on your description earlier of the sound of drums and guitar.
Charles,

Midflder, this is really the trap in high end audio, the reviewers and loud posters can convince many that something which is not exactly right is indeed right and that you are just not "refined" or "educated" or "experienced" enough to recognize it! Don't let anyone convince you of that....you know what it is about live music that turns you on. And if a speaker does not remind you of that, but instead grates on you and tires you, don't let anyone tell you that it is right. Charles is dead on: you brain won't be fooled!

This could be an extremely long discussion with many related points. For instance, how did audio evolve this way? I offered up one answer, "apparent" detail is easy to hear. So it is an easy yardstick to use, to show off with, to impress others with.

Here's another partial answer to how this evolved. Most speakers do not have dynamics that in any way come even partly close to the dynamics of live music. So the brain and spirit are not satisfied. Dynamics is one of the most emotional traits of music. So,what is tempting to do when the dynamics of cymbals and high hats don't jump out like in real life? The answer for many has been to turn up the tweeter. Problem is, this solution does not satisfy what the brain is looking for as it is only louder, not more dynamic.

I don't know what your price range is, or if you are looking for used or new. So, it's hard to make suggestions. But for power and dynamics, I could suggest hearing some of the Tannoys. New or used. Even some 80's Tannoys. There's a reason why folks keep them for decades. It would also be fun to get your impression of the really great JBL 1400 array, an extremely natural speaker that has jump, satisfying dynamics, and that richness you are looking for.

This richness thing is itself a bit complex. Part of it is tonal balance for sure. But when I play my instrument here and then my stereo with various speakers I realize that part of the impression of richness of the real instrument is not just tonal balance. The richness, for speakers that portray it, also comes from the ability to convey more of the harmonic structure. The sound of an instrument is not just the exact note....instruments would all sound the same in that case, and they would be boring. The sound of the actual instrument is made up of a huge number of harmonics. Speakers that can portray more of those harmonics sound "richer", and this is not just richness in terms of lower midrange and upper bass. It is a feeling of richness that is from delivering more of the instruments harmonics.

This line of thought comes from many, many instances of observation in listening to systems after listening to live music, and going back and forth between live music here and then my system, only seconds apart. Moreover, playing along with the system really shows this clearly....the stark difference between the instrument and the speakers really stands out.

So, all in all a complex subject delved into by a simple, but very observant original post. I loved the original post because it is a very accurate observation that is talked about very little in this industry.

One more quick observation: this trait of so many high end speakers which cannot portray richness and power is why so few end up in studios. There, the contrast between live and playback would be glaring. High end audio folk often show so much elitism here, saying that the home speakers are so much better than what studios use, as if high end studios are dumb or do not know the sound of music. Wrong, many are very aware of high end audio and they shake their heads in awe as to what passes for great sound. It's certainly not about price, just look up the price of the big ATC speakers that so many studios are using. Actually, I should add ATC to the list along with JBL and Tannoy for you to go listen to but they won't be so easy to find.

You are on the right track: you know what you are looking for in sound.

"One more quick observation: this trait of so many high end speakers which cannot portray richness and power is why so few end up in studios."

Not sure I agree. I think the reason is that speakers used in studios are designed specifically for studio use. Asthetics/finishes play a much lesser role and litening is more often done nearfield there, so room acoustics play a lesser role as well compared to most home setups.

Larger speakers are typically more needed in a typical home setup in a moderate to larger sized room to deliver richness and power largely due to the acoustics of the room. Take that out of the equation and many smaller monitor speakers, both for home and studio use, can deliver in a more nearfield listening scenario.

Headphones are the extreme example that fullness and weight can be delivered out of a very small package but typically only when room acoustics and size are taken out of the equation. I think one has to realize this before passing any generalized judgements on ability of any particular speaker design to deliver fullness and weight.

My <$100 Klipsch earbuds, fitted properly in the ear can do it in spades, for example!!! Fitted loosely or without a good seal, less so, starting to sound more thin and weightless. The tight seal is the key to getting the acoustic results desired, not the speaker (or earbud in this case).

OHM Acoustics is a good example of a speaker maker that realizes this and does thins right. THe entire current line is designed and sounds essentially the same from the smallest (<$1000) to largest (>$6000) models. You are simply buying the ability to perform and sound a certain way in a particular room, not a "better design for better sound" as prices go up. If you like "that sound" this makes speaker selection fairly straightforward. The speaker they recommend will largely depend on room size along the lines of the chart on their website. If the largest model alone cannot fit the bill, then they now start to build powered subs into teh largest model in order to be able to scale up further if needed, for additional cost. Most will probably never have such a need though. Its a pretty unique and scalable approach to speaker design based on very practical considerations, not hype!

Omsed,
I appreciate your thoughts and ontributions to this interesting topic.
Charles,

Its a very interesting and relevant topic of discussion, but I would find it more beneficial if some specific examples of speakers not delivering up to snuff and why were cited to support some the generalized arguments presented that I have trouble buying into as stated.

I would agree that many "high end" audio products including speakers may not offer good value for the money, but some clearly do as well.

I think we tend to know what we like, but may not always be as well informed about the things we do not like as much.

In general, I find it hard to justify paying top dollar for smaller speakers. "Build quality" is often cited as the justifying factor.

Build quality is certainly important but the laws of physics limit what small drivers in a small box can do in regards to weight and fullness in many rooms. Weight and fullness alone is not such a challenge in a smaller room. WHat is more of challenge is getting that along with all teh rest of what is considered positive atributes in good sound. THe bigger the room, generally the bigger the challenge, and probably the more cost is justified to achieve best results. Its mainly a scalability issue, how to achieve optimal sound in a larger room when needed. The solution is always some combination of larger or more drivers in a larger box along with build quality.

I will say that I have heard some smaller speakers with top notch build quality perform surprisingly well in some larger rooms these days. Speakers from Dynaudio, PSB, Focal,Magico and YG are some that come to mind, though there are others. Speaker driver technology seems to have definitely improved over the years, allowing smaller drivers and designs to do better than in the past. I expect that trend to continue into the future still as well. But are the price tags always justified? That where things become greyer for me. WHat is the true value of a smaller speaker that can compete well with larger ones? I think the used market is in practice the only valid indicator.

That's pretty much how I think about it. Most any good speaker under $10000 should be a top notch performer in most rooms I think, as long as the right design for the specific room to meet the listeners needs is selected.

As the room gets larger, the designs up to the task become fewer and larger, and this is where higher costs may justifiably come into play.

Of course, the other factor that comes into play is listener expectations. This site attracts those whose expectations are the greatest in general I would say. So that ups the ante in terms of what is good or acceptable sound and deep pockets certainly affect the market as well, but its clearly not representative of music lovers as a whole