Dear Rauliruegas, "Subject is that we must have measurements of the 927 as a reference independent of that: " I like it " + "Subject is that we must have measurements of the 927 as a reference independent of that: " I like it ", IMHO we have to know: what are we hearing with those today tipical measurements/facts?." +I asked to Dkarmeli. If we are saying that the 927 is the holy grail: where are those facts that could prove with out doubt is in reality the hoily grail?
The conversation isn't about me liking it or not, I'm just another audiophile, with access to one who can confirm what others have heard and known long before I came along. The EMT 927 is a PROVEN REFERENCE and the Holy Grail without my liking it. There's years of history and track record and not only from the audiophiles but from the best recording engineers, top recording labels and mastering labs, from people who had access to best master tapes and knew recordings with access to everything under the sun and did it for living. It was always THE industry standard and holy grail from day one to the last day that they were made and that's nothing to do with my opinion of it. It was, is and will always be unique. Thank you Mr. Franz!
- "I heard several times the 930 and other TT EMT models in systems that I know very well and other that was my first time with. I'm not impressed for it in a different way that hearing other top TTs."
EMT wasn't concerned with the audiophiles, they built industrial grade professional equipment of the highest order. The 930 had a very different set of design parameters to the 927 or high end consumer tables you're thinking of. It wasn't a mastering reference it was a dj table with market specific qualities and wasn't all about sound. It delivered what that market wanted 24/7 in spades, that's why they dominated that market until cheaper Japanese dd tables arrived. They did the same job for a fraction of the price, and again sound quality was't the main criteria. If you really want to know the 930 stick any of those top tt's in the same environment and then compare them. They use to stick the 930s in a van and drive around cobblestone streets playing music. Repairs in the field, swap out cartridges on the fly, and get abused by all kinds of users and still sound pretty good, which high end consumer tt you know of is capable of that? EMT engineers accomplished what they set out to do with everything they designed. They had very clear parameters that they adhered to.
- "Dkarmeli, posted examples of that " natural " sound and reality when we are seated in different places in a music hall but that IMHO we can't take in count because what comes in the LP grooves was recorded for microphones that was in a very different position that when we attend to a concerto. Those microphones are really near to the source and the direct sound is the one that prevail when at our seat position the reflected sound has a main influence in what we are hearing."
I used that analogy as an example of how different tables could all be right yet different at the same time. Its a matter of differing perspectives for the same reality and nothing specific to any recording or table. FYI what you hear on the finished LP is the mastering and production engineers perspective and not the microphones and their location.
- "About the Final TT I know an Agoner whom own it and I can tell you that maybe he does not agree with that: " too many gimmicks"
The principle behind the Parthenon 2025 was resonance control, they tried to do this with mixing copper and aluminum in the platter, the inverted bearing and the ridiculous ball bearing in the tonearm base and the wooden platform. Of course it was a high mass design common in Japan and was a pretty decent sounding table but compared to the Continuum which its design is also predicated on resonance control the Final is only a high school science project. And this is purely scientific fact and not anyone's subjective opinion.
- "Now, IMHO nothing in audio ( including the 927 ) is a rocket science that can't be duplicated. If, for example, I'm a TT designer ( that I'm not. ) that wants to put on the market the real ultimate TT I can asure you that I will analize every single today/vintage top TT not only to duplicate its performance but to improve over it. Maybe no one thinked that the 927 is the one to beat ( price no object. ). Could you think that in China, Japan, Korea, etc, etc can't be duplicated? I think this is not the subject."
The great stuff is a lot more than rocket science, its art of highest order and only the artist knows how to achieve what he created, you can't copy that if you're not on that level and the ones who are capable wont copy, they'll also create. Ask Mosin who's also and accomplished designer and creator, he can explain it better than I can.
-++++ " my subjective experience is the final determining factor for me. " ++++
What's strange about that? I know enough to know what I like. My most treasured cartridge is a 60s vintage SPU with a crooked cantilever that came mounted for free with a 301 that I bought off ebay for parts, imagine that.
The conversation isn't about me liking it or not, I'm just another audiophile, with access to one who can confirm what others have heard and known long before I came along. The EMT 927 is a PROVEN REFERENCE and the Holy Grail without my liking it. There's years of history and track record and not only from the audiophiles but from the best recording engineers, top recording labels and mastering labs, from people who had access to best master tapes and knew recordings with access to everything under the sun and did it for living. It was always THE industry standard and holy grail from day one to the last day that they were made and that's nothing to do with my opinion of it. It was, is and will always be unique. Thank you Mr. Franz!
- "I heard several times the 930 and other TT EMT models in systems that I know very well and other that was my first time with. I'm not impressed for it in a different way that hearing other top TTs."
EMT wasn't concerned with the audiophiles, they built industrial grade professional equipment of the highest order. The 930 had a very different set of design parameters to the 927 or high end consumer tables you're thinking of. It wasn't a mastering reference it was a dj table with market specific qualities and wasn't all about sound. It delivered what that market wanted 24/7 in spades, that's why they dominated that market until cheaper Japanese dd tables arrived. They did the same job for a fraction of the price, and again sound quality was't the main criteria. If you really want to know the 930 stick any of those top tt's in the same environment and then compare them. They use to stick the 930s in a van and drive around cobblestone streets playing music. Repairs in the field, swap out cartridges on the fly, and get abused by all kinds of users and still sound pretty good, which high end consumer tt you know of is capable of that? EMT engineers accomplished what they set out to do with everything they designed. They had very clear parameters that they adhered to.
- "Dkarmeli, posted examples of that " natural " sound and reality when we are seated in different places in a music hall but that IMHO we can't take in count because what comes in the LP grooves was recorded for microphones that was in a very different position that when we attend to a concerto. Those microphones are really near to the source and the direct sound is the one that prevail when at our seat position the reflected sound has a main influence in what we are hearing."
I used that analogy as an example of how different tables could all be right yet different at the same time. Its a matter of differing perspectives for the same reality and nothing specific to any recording or table. FYI what you hear on the finished LP is the mastering and production engineers perspective and not the microphones and their location.
- "About the Final TT I know an Agoner whom own it and I can tell you that maybe he does not agree with that: " too many gimmicks"
The principle behind the Parthenon 2025 was resonance control, they tried to do this with mixing copper and aluminum in the platter, the inverted bearing and the ridiculous ball bearing in the tonearm base and the wooden platform. Of course it was a high mass design common in Japan and was a pretty decent sounding table but compared to the Continuum which its design is also predicated on resonance control the Final is only a high school science project. And this is purely scientific fact and not anyone's subjective opinion.
- "Now, IMHO nothing in audio ( including the 927 ) is a rocket science that can't be duplicated. If, for example, I'm a TT designer ( that I'm not. ) that wants to put on the market the real ultimate TT I can asure you that I will analize every single today/vintage top TT not only to duplicate its performance but to improve over it. Maybe no one thinked that the 927 is the one to beat ( price no object. ). Could you think that in China, Japan, Korea, etc, etc can't be duplicated? I think this is not the subject."
The great stuff is a lot more than rocket science, its art of highest order and only the artist knows how to achieve what he created, you can't copy that if you're not on that level and the ones who are capable wont copy, they'll also create. Ask Mosin who's also and accomplished designer and creator, he can explain it better than I can.
-++++ " my subjective experience is the final determining factor for me. " ++++
What's strange about that? I know enough to know what I like. My most treasured cartridge is a 60s vintage SPU with a crooked cantilever that came mounted for free with a 301 that I bought off ebay for parts, imagine that.