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How much can be measured -- and how much cannot?

There has been a lot of discussion over the years on Audiogon regarding the measurement of components and other audio products. Some people claim everything is either measurable now or will one day become measurable with more sophisticated measuring equipment. But others say there are things in high end audio that will never me measurable and that measurements are really not that important.

Here is a typical example -- a quote taken from the Stereophile forum regarding their review of the Playback Designs MPS-5:

"JA 2/17/10 Review Measurements of Playback Designs MPS-5
Posted: April 13, 2011 - 8:42am

John Atkinson's 2/17/10 review measurements of the Playback Designs MPS-5 revealed less than stellar technical performance even though Michael Fremer really liked the player. I've included JA's closing measurement remarks below followed by the manufacturer's comments.

To my knowledge there was never any followup in Stereophile regarding the manufacturers reply the MPS-5 could not be adequately measured with traditional measurement techniques.

I believe Stereophile should respond to this reply in the interests of its own measurements credibility.

Len"

How important do you think measurements are? Are the ears really the only true arbiter?
sabai
sabai OP
2,027 posts
 
This is like Rashomon. It is amazing how many differing points of view there are on this subject. Each one seems to be a valid part of this complex puzzle. IMO. The question remains, which aspect is the predominating factor -- or is this a matter of co-important factors?
sabai OP
2,027 posts
 
Regarding the example in the introduction regarding John Atkinson's measurements of the Playback designs MPS-5, I would have been interested in hearing a discussion between the reviewer and John Atkinson as they listened to the PD together after the measurements were taken and after John Atkinson wrote about his observations.

Another recent example comes to mind -- John Atkinson's recent measurements of the AMR DP-777 opposite the reviewer's observations. John Atkinson expressed disappointment with the measurements of the AMR DP-777 where the reviewer praised the unit very highly.

Is it possible for the twain to meet? Would it not be interesting for John Atkinson to sit down and listen to some music with the reviewer when all is said and done to see if he finds the actually listening experience as irksome as his measurements? I think it would be interesting to hear their cross-talk.
ahendler
416 posts
 
To me the best speakers give me an emotional connection to the music. The final of the Sibelius 2nd will give me goose bumps on certain speakers. I know of no measurement that will tell me which speaker will do that for me. Remember early solid state and early digital cd players measured great but sounded terrible. The statement above that measurements alone will tell you if you will like a certain speaker is just nonsense
mapman's avatar
mapman
22,399 posts
 
"The final of the Sibelius 2nd will give me goose bumps on certain speakers. I know of no measurement that will tell me which speaker will do that for me."

No, but to Almargs point, when shopping for gear with the best chance of doing it, impedance specs allow matching from output to input that if accurate and applied properly as a factor in the decision making process is more likely to result in better dynamics and lower distortion, two attributes that are generally desirable from a goosebumps perspective regardless of what speaker is used.
onhwy61's avatar
onhwy61
5,249 posts
 
In reply to Charles1dad, good sound is a comparative thing. If you don't know bad sound it might be hard to recognize good and nearly impossible to fully understand great sound.

Your attribution of beauty and enjoyment to components is exactly the type of marketing conditioning I was talking about. Over time each of us has developed a belief system about sound and music that largely predetermine our opinions on certain audio subjects. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but once you take it into account questions of measurements vs. subjectivity become largely irrelevant. We can trade opinions, but our belief systems, which I believe are marketing driven, prevent us from being educated, at least to some large extent.
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