Bass--How much is too much?

Justlisten:

Chesky Records CHE151 Stereo& Surround Set-up disc in tracks 14,15 and 16 has guidelines and tests for setting up the sub level. Maybe you can consider this as an additional tool to determine if your sub level is too high.

I concur with previous posters that many times sub level tends to be set too high.

Took a peek at your system but pictures show former speakers you had. Is the room the same?

Mlsstl, you are giving clues to where you live... I can give hints as to where i grew up - the 5000-odd pipe organ I 'tickled the ivories' (actually, the ebonies) on when I was in high school (I pretended to take lessons, but it was really more of me trying to learn how to play Max Reger's Introduction and Passacaglia, which 20-odd years after I first heard it, is still my favorite organ piece) was replaced in 2005, much to my chagrin (great, great mechanical Rieger organ with about 100 ranks, and 70 stops on four manuals and a pedal (including a 32ft wooden flue pipe if I remember correctly)). It was replaced with another Rieger, with more advanced technology (makes it much easier to maintain), and apparently was designed very specifically for the space. The organist, however, is still the same as when I was in high school and is, from everything I hear, is one of the best out there.

Listening to the big wooden pipes from close up gives you an idea of what real bass power means, and a big pipe organ with lots of variety in stops is a joy to discover. I miss that now as I live in a place without many pipe organs.

Do go along with those who feel that live acoustic music is the basis to evaluate the way bass should be reproduced by one's system, I am reminded of the joke about the 'audiophile' attending a live symphonic orchestra concert and complaining that there was a lack of bass!
I am satisfied with the bass replicating what I hear in live concerts, organ included. If your system can do organ well, then any perceived lack of bass (or too much bass)in other recordings is in the recording or the music.

Bob P.

First, I agree with Jmcgrogan2 re the (mis)use of a sub. I suspect many folks think they should 'hear' the sub all the time. That, however, will not stop me from trying to use a sub to correct for a moderate room related problem. My speakers are spec'd as down 3db at 28hz. They are in fact relatively flat to 32hz except for 6 and 8db dips at 40 and 50 hz and down 3db at 60 hz caused by room dimension problems not fixed by moving the speakers about.

RWD, I recently attended two Mahler performances (5 & 7) and in neither was there any 'chest thummping' bass. The latter was in a large hall with a top tier orchestra. I was in the low center balcony. Not impressed by the sonics at all, except the height allowed the upper-mid high frequencies to heard exceptionally clearly. (Not impressed by the performance either so better seats wouldn't have made me more happy).

The former was by a smaller local orchestra in a medium sized auditorium. I was in the orchestra section, center, row C. The sonic's were outstanding and the playing was pretty good for a less than full time orchestra. This would have been an audiophile favorite, there was even fine depth of image, instrument seperation, and the power of the orchestra was impressive. Loud, impactful, dynamic, BUT no earthshaking vibrations. In fact, as I think about it my pants have never flapped in any live performance.

My goal in using a sub is to get flat power response down into the 20's. I plan to run my speakers full range and add a sub crossed over at 50 hz with a 12db low pass filter and use a one band parametric equalizer to flatten out a signicicant rise at 32 hz which will happen when I raise the volume of the sub to match the mains and sub at 60hz. I love the planning phase much more than the implemention stage. In the former I'm always right, in the latter it seems rarely ever! :-)

I don't know this for a fact, but I suspect the 'feel' that folks are seeking has a lot more with speed/impact in the mid/upper bass than ultimate low bass. This is somewhat supported by an experience I have playing a disc of some solo piano with good bass. With most amps I tried (all tubes BTW - haven't tried SS in years) the bass was good but with one set of amps the deepest notes were 'crunching' for lack of a better term. I would guess these sounds were in the 45 to 60 hz range. IMHO what differentiated them was not db level but speed of the leading edge of the notes.

Now I'll go back to contemplating my navel. :-)

IMHO what differentiated them was not db level but speed of the leading edge of the notes.

What Newbee describes is EXACTLY what you tend to get from an accurate subwoofer. It allows you to clearly discern different bass instruments as the timbre comes across clearly rather than just big booming bass. The kick drum does not bury or mask the bass guitar for example.

The slightest harmonic resonance in the bass (1 % distortion or more) simply clutters everything up...it means that many instruments are all producing stronger harmonics in the 60 to 300 Hz range where your ears are so much more sensitive that this effect dwarfs the proper balance of a musical bass.

The really big bass you hear from small cheap subwoofers is almost ENTIRELY coming from harmonic distortion - impressive but you can't distinguish anything anymore due to the "masking" effect of those higher distorted harmonics. It is akin to the sound engineer simply jacking up the 60 to 100 Hz range with an EQ to give a Britney Spears "hit me one more time" sound - nice but you don't need that on every track yoy listen to.

This can 'over-power' some midrange music, which can ruin the sound for me.

Well said John - this is EXACTLY the problem with small cheap subwoofers and the best remedy is to AVOID THEM altogether, which many audiophiles do (it also explains the "huge sub woofer integration problems" that most audiophiles face)

Of course it is understandable that nobody likes to fork out the similar $$ for a subwoofer to cover the last octave as they do for their main speakers => therein lies the problem and explanation for frustration with integration. Good bass is expensive - there is no free lunch and those who expect a free lunch from a sub rarely get musical bass.