Dgob & Banquo,
I wish you the best of luck. I may try to do something similar just to see what happens. If I eventually do, I will also try it with a single plate underneath which could be mounted on pneumatic/magnetic isolation footers. As I have repeatedly stated in these fora, I am a BIG fan of adding isolation footers underneath turntables to lower any resonance to very low frequencies. I remain skeptical that I want my arm and my turntable platter on separate axes of isolation. I cannot see how that would be a good thing as it negates everything one learns about speed stability and controlling the tracking of the cartridge in the groove. All this said, I wish you the best of luck and results. |
Dear all, I use the arm pod specialy made for my Kuzma Stabi Ref. by the Reed in conjunction with the 2A ,12''
tonearm ( www.tonearms.lt/accessories). Both the TT and the
'tower' rest upon 3 spikes and together on a sand filled rack ( Copulare). The arm pode is made from layers of steel (2x), cork (2x),granite (2x) and acryl (1x). This is
obviously an attempt to construct an arm pod wich is not only rigid but also accousticaly 'dead'. My first thought
was that this construction was some kind of overkill probable because I owned the Linn LP-12 before... But I am very happy with the result and prefer this 'combo' above
the Triplanar VII wich is on the Kuzma base.
Regards, |
Nandric,
Do you know the weight of that particular armpod and what do have it sitting on.....eg spikes or other? |
Dear Halcro, I already mentioned spikes. They are made from
steel and are of course adjustable (+/-4mm). My specimen is
7kgr but the weight is dependent from the ordered dimensions wich should be consulted with Vidmantas (the owner of the Reed) or the (national) dealer. The Kuzma and
the pod sit on the sand filled shelf,4cm thick ,54x54 cm
large. The rack is Copulare, with 4 identical shelfs ,made in Germany (see Google).
Kind regards, |
Sorry Nandric,
My bad. Didn't read carefully enough.
Your set-up should sound wonderful I imagine. Pity you have no System pics?
Cheers |
T_bone,
I have made a few adjustments to my system. Having now further customised my arm tower to a weight of 6kg, I also used three spikes to couple it to the platform. However, and I really have no idea why this should be, the real transformation came in removing my Symposium Ultra platform and seating everything directly on my birch wall shelf: WOW!
I can now state that having the tt and arm tower on seperate axis of isolation works. I have owned a few tt's (including the Roksan Xerxes, Roksan Xerxes 10, SME 10, Clear Audio Master Reference and Acoustic Signature Mambo)and a variety of platforms and isolation. Yet I have never had the level of performance that I am currently getting from the nude Technics SP10 MkII with a completely decoupled arm tower. The inner detail, staging, clarity, ease and frequency extention all show major improvements to what I have heard before (outside of live venues of course).
I will continue to experiment with test tracks and human and technological support to confirm or challenge my perceptions. However, I have no axe to grind here but I would hasten to say that this must be tried out. The differences are not subtle!!! |
Atmasphere,
I just recalled your referring to the fact that: "elastomerics... are more efficient if they are loaded properly!" This might answer why the removal of the Symposium platform had such a major impact. However, I did increase the weight of the armtower to over 6kg and this brought no major improvements - save stabilizing the imaging.
Whatever the reasoning (and I acknowledge that the loading was inadequate in this instance, particularly as the platform works wonderfully under the behemoth mass of the Acoustic Signature Mambo) the set up is really and truly wonderful. I remain amazed by this relatively cheap option and the gains it brings.
Nevertheless, I will still try a platter of the SAEC type at some distant point just because I have learned to never close my self off from possible alternatives and the gains that these might bring. The curent set up simply seems the best of the alternatives that I have tried and/or listened to so far.
Obviously and highly recommended. |
Dgob,
Does that mean your TT is on pneumatic footers and your armpod is on spikes? |
That's cool, Dgob. So many new things to try. I hadn't even thought of a wall mount shelf, but sounds like it's worth a try. Cool arm pod. How'd you make it 6kg?
T_bone: from his system pics it does look like he has the sp-10 on AT 616's and tonearm pod on spikes. |
T_bone,
Yes, that's the way it's set up now. Really impressed. |
Good on you! I think getting a great result from experimentation is wonderful. I'm very happy for you that it worked. I'm going to venture out on a limb and say that you would not keep the same sound if you spiked the table and floated the armpod on the footers. I expect there is resonance in the TT you are dampening/sinking (the reason why people in plinth-world make bigger/heavier/better plinths for the SP-10Mk2), and the improvement on the armpod came from a) switching from blutack to spikes, and b) taking out the symposium (two isolation methods next to each other is usually worse than just one in my experience) - both of which should have improved things.
I expect that if you do not hear any issues with the fact that the table/platter is now theoretically resonating at a low frequency in relation to the tonearm pivot point, that the experiment has been successful. Once in position, the table itself has a great deal of inertia (in 3-dimensional space), which should help keep most of the resonance transfer in the domain of heat generation rather than low frequency movement. Remaining theoretical issues might remain just that - theoretical.
I have a couple of motors like that and some great footers made by Sony way back in the day. I could try that relatively easily if I could make an armpod. I'll have to think of a way to get one done... |
T_bone,
Excellent and do let me know how it goes if you do try it. |
Dgob, all elastomerics have a range of operation- a minimum loading and a maximum. Depending on where you get the elastomerics you can often get a datasheet that can be very helpful in this regard. However, I did increase the weight of the armtower to over 6kg and this brought no major improvements - save stabilizing the imaging. In my book, stabilizing the imaging is a major improvement! One of the weaknesses many 'tables have relative to analog tape is image stability. I really could not get my 'table to do that as well as tape until I installed the solid plinth (damping the original plinth, which was hollow-cast, was not enough!). |
Atmasphere,
You're right, the spikes and resultant image stabilization was a major improvement. What I should have said was that it did not bring performance back to where I had it when only using blue tac and not using the Symposium. The combination of spikes and the removed viscoelastic platform has brought major improvements in this regard but I still need to test for any trade-offs and ensure where (if anywhere) weaknesses might now lie.
Onwards and upwards |
'viscoelastic platform'?? What's *that*? |
Dear Dgob/all: Theory/theorethical is only that: theory/theorethical and IMHO means almost nothing till you can prove exactly what that theory states.
All the persons's experiments/facts posted in this thread means that for each one of them what all they are hearing it is a great quality performance improvement that permited to all of them enjoy MUSIC as never before.
Good for all, congratulations!!!
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Whenever I feel a bit viscoelastic, I visit my chiropractor.
Have any of you guys heard of or tried the Wave Kinetics footers? I am thinking of trying some under my Slate Plinths. |
viscoelastic doesn't sound like something you want to use as a plinth, although if you do have a rigid plinth already such a material might be good for damping. |
Raul,
I cannot doubt the truth of your statement. I would encourage others to try it out but also understand if they decide to go another route.
Atmasphere,
Examples of the viscolelastic materials used for isolation and damping can be found at:
http://www.equarack.com/isolation-footers.htm
Maybe I have misused the terminology or misunderstood. If so, my apologies. |
Hi Raul,
Just a little anecdote to suggest why "I would [strongly] encourage others to try" the nude Technics and decoupled arm tower. My wife has become desensitised of the joys of hifi due to the decades of constant component change and repeated play of stock test tracks that this has involved. It seemed a miracle when she both noticed and commented positively on what she heard this week. Similarly, my seven year old daughter tends to criticise my music and finds no time for jazz and classical music which, I am told, I "always play". Well last night, I was playing Peggy Lee and Ella Fitzgerald. She danced to all tracks and asked me questions about Ella and her life. I know this might not seem like much but it touched me greatly and I believe this was down to the natural and detailed way in which the records are now being presented.
Given that the changes I have made have cost me absolutely nothing so far (although I might vernture towards having a customised arm tower made - a la Halcro - at some future point), I simply cannot see why anyone would not at least try this out. |
Dear Dgob - congratulations - isn't it a grand feeling getting closer to the music and the family at the same time.
Is the feeling a little more special this time around because this upgrade cost practically nothing ?
Dear T-Bone you said - b) taking out the symposium (two isolation methods next to each other is usually worse than just one in my experience) - both of which should have improved things.
I believe my set up supports this as well my sp10 is on 4 inches of maple which itself sits on the spiked columns of the actual stand not another shelf.
Cheers Chris |
Dgob, So how do you have things set up now? What is the arm tower sitting on? |
Atmasphere,
I've reattached the support base to the Mambo arm tower and then placed 5.5kg weight on that. I've kept the two (of the three)exposed spikes on the column and then drilled and tapped a 6mm hole at the end of the support base: so as to have a tripod of spikes that hold the whole thing about 3mm above the birch wall shelf. I've then rolled four small balls of blue tac and placed these under the four corners of the support base (the weights ensure that the blue tac is squashed firmly against the platform (or plinth!)and that the arrangement is grounded through the three spikes.
It's not the prettiest arrangement (given the old small bar bell weight that I have used on the arm tower/ supporting base) but it really works and is costless - until such time as I can obtain a more aesthetically pleasing arm tower. |
Chris,
No doubt about it. The importance of unexpected family appreciation has only been further enhanced by the fact that it has cost me nothing to achieve these results: other than a little time in ensuring perfect set up parameters. |
Are there any launching dates of Raul' s tonearm and Dertonearm's turntable? Do we see something in 2011? |
Dear Thuchan, You are teasing or you are an optimist. I myself can imagine such a date only in hereafter.
Regards, |
Are there any launching dates of Raul' s tonearm and Dertonearm's turntable? Do we see something in 2011?
Now that would be something to see :-). Derts table using Raul's tonearm being aligned with Dert's universal protractor. |
Dear Thuchan, the Apolyt will be spinning its 88 lbs platter started by idler wheel drive and kept on speed by tangential thread - force free bearing - this summer in Hamburg, Oberstdorf and near the shore of Lake Ammersee. At least we will all see a few pictures here on Audiogon.
Cheers,
D. |
Dertonearm, Will Apolyt be pulling water-skiers on the lake in addition to spinning an 88 lb platter? (Thank you for the metric conversion, by the way.)
Joke told to me by Barcelonian in Barcelona at the Maritime Museum:
The galleon captain says to his slave crew, "I have good news and bad news.
"The good news is that King Philip himself is going to visit the ship tomorrow.
The bad news is he wants to go water skiing." |
Dear Lewm, too bad we won't be able to even test that prospective added benefit regarding water skiing - there is no water-skiing allowed on Lake Ammersee due to wildlife-reserve status (many rare birds here ..;-) ... ) and protected shore-side.
So we have to be content with the huge inertia most likely eliminating all prospective derivations from the desired 33 1/3, 45 and 78 rpm.
Good news are - no one has to row for it.
Bad news are - it won't fit on or into any high-end rack out there.
But then it will come with it's own rack air-suspended with 1.5 Hz resonance frequency.
More in summer 2011.
Cheers,
D. |
Dear Lew, The Dutch collectivly deny any sence for humour
to the Germans. I thought because of II WW but I learned that the more probale cause is the lost finale in 1974.
This event they will never forget nor forgive to their
neghbours. On the other hand only 8 examples of your beloved Twain are sold there...So you may be in trouble with some of them. But 'our' Daniel is a world citizen so
you will survive I hope.
Regards, |
But Nandric, you did like the water skiing joke, I hope. My friend in Barcelona is one of my favorite people on earth. We will visit her this summer, I think, even though she does not have an outboard arm pod. (Nice chassis, though.) |
The galleon captain says to his slave crew, "I have good news and I have bad news."
"What's the good news?" they cried.
He said, "We're going to Jamaica." The response was wild cheering.
Then one of the crew ask, "So what's the bad news?"
The captain replied, "We'll have Buddy Rich beating time."
Hey, German or not, a little humor shouldn't hurt. |
|
OK. Here's the other one that my friend Rosina told me on the same day.
The Captain says to the crew, "I have good news and bad news.
The good news is that you guys are going to get a change of underwear.
(Big cheer goes up.)
The bad news is: Jose', you change with Pedro. Pedro, you change with Ramon..."
The galleon slave was generally chained to his oar until he died of starvation, physical exertion, etc. Then they would install another to take his place. None of these guys would think of mounting his tonearm on one galleon and his turntable on another. (So this is not OT.) |
OK we have a time window for the Apolyt. What about Raul' s tonearm?
Does it appear in 2011? or do we have to wait until all jokes regarding the gallion are told... |
Thucan,
I think Raul has just posted something about his arm on the MM/MC thread. I know that it is aesthetically pleasing but if its performance matches its beauty, we might be in for something very special. |
Thanks Dgob,
i went a bit on a side of Copernicus and put the question on "Rauls platform" |
Dgob: "I think Raul has just posted something about his arm on the MM/MC thread." Any chance you can provide a link so we can have a glimpse of this revolutionary tonearm? Thanks. ____ |
Hi Hiho (enter elves stage right!),
I think you can find it here: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1200430667&openmine&zzDgob&4&5#Dgob
I have only seen it but am pleased to hear you suspect that it is 'revolutionary'. I wouldn't be surprised though. It does seem beautifully engineered. |
Dear Lew, Your jealousy reg. my arm pod is such that you even use such 'arguments' as gallions and slaves against the innocent thing. I expected, to be honest, some reference to your beloved Newton and his laws but I need
to deal only with the arguments you posted. And those are
to my mind self defeating. No slave had the means to own
both; the TT as well as the tonearm. So obviously the more
probale situation was that there was a TT in one gallion
and the tonearm in the other. If the slaves wanted some music the only possible way was to connect them somehow.
Regards,
|
Dear Dgob, Where? I went to that page. Raul alludes to the tonearm in his text but there is no photo I can find. There is or was no photo on Raul's "system" site, either. Or are you saying that he just recently posted one there? (But I looked two days ago... nada.)
Dear Nandric, I am trying to be serious again so as not to offend the Copernicans. Clearly, King Philip would bring the arm pod along with him wherever he went water skiing. |
Dear Lewm: There are no pictures that I can show yet. When the unit be ready all of you will know and see it through Agon.
regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
|
|
Looks like adjustable headshell offset angle. Nice to have but dangerous in the wrong hands. Strictly for the cognoscenti. |
Hi All,
So I've suggested my being impressed by the changes that I have achieved in moving to a naked Technics SP10 Mk2 with a decoupled, stand-alone arm tower. Yet I started to wonder what precisely constituted this "better". Well, in a ham-fisted attempt to clarify my thinking here I thought I'd share some impressions of this experience.
As I noted, with the new analogue arrangement, the first and most obvious change is that the sound stage is far larger. This means that the spacing between musicians is not only wider but it is markedly deeper too. This is accompanied by the sensation of actual acoustic space between musicians and presents a perspective that is far closer to that provided in an actual live performance.
The next most obvious feature relates to the above one but is that you acquire more control over complex performance material. Large orchestra crescendos do not become confused and the instrumentation remains identifiable throughout. This goes hand in hand with the much increased sense of ease that performances attain.
The next most obvious change is the increased level of 'detail' that you get. For me, detail is the critical factor of quality in high fidelity replay. This is not only being able to hear additional instruments but also to be able to distinguish timbre and every audible feature that makes a live performance. To neglect the certrality of detail as the key criteria seems to me to depend on a violent limitation on what one means by 'detail'. For me, the term means 'more information' and that is surely (be it in increasing the bite of string instuments or; the rasp of brass or; the percussive impact of drums, strings or keyboards or; the quieter spaces that give good staging) at the heart of everything that the audiophile is seeking. Well, you get more detail when playing your music through this new analogue arrangement.
This fact leads to a need to 'equalise your hearing'. This seems critical to me because (I believe) we can become familiar with hifi norms that have little to do with actual live performances. One such norm is the spotlighting of a frequency range and or instrument at the cost of the full range of the actual performance. It's difficult to explain what I mean here other than to say that proportion is generally lost with this form of hifi spotlighting (there are of course other forms of equipment that can also achieve these negative results - including certain cables and forms of amplification).
In the new arrangement, the lead instrument/frequency is brought back into perspective with the full ensemble. This does not mean that there is a loss of detail in such a lead instrument or frequency range. What it seems to mean is that the supporting detail is brought out into what becomes a more detailed performance in which everything just seems right (key instrument or frequencies included). Listener fatigue also goes on holiday as this new detail makes its entrance. As I say, I found that it made me reassess the various cues that I had become accustomed to basing my assessments of components on. And that put live performances (or intimations of them in line with my own experiences of live performances at a variety of venues) back to the fore of my appreciations.
I name four recordings that underpin, and seem to fully testify to, my impressions. These recordings are:
1. Bach, Goldberg Variations, Glenn Gould (1982) CBS
2. Bach, Donatas & Partitas, Nathan Milstein (1975) Deutsche Grammophon 2721 087
3.Prokofiev, Romeo and Juliet complet ballet, Algis Zuaitis, Bolshoi Theatre Orchestra, EMI CPD 41 4452 3 and
4.John Surman, Westering Home, (1972) Island Records, HELP 10.
I wont go into detail about the factors that come through on these phenomenal works: they are worth listening to regardless of the quality of ones equipment. Suffice it to say that all four of these recordings make my above impressions certainties for me. Yet all recordings take a similar route to improvement (obviously in proportion to the quality of their own performance and recording) with my nude turntable and detached stand alone arm tower.
I strongly recommend such experimentation for those who might seek to explore my experience and appreciation of what constitutes its being better. |
Dear Dgob, You made all the (rowing) people in the other galleon (with the arm pod) very happy. |
Dear Nandric,
Thank you. I think!
Just by way of clarification around my listening, there are notes on the recordings that I have suggested above. As I say, they are worth having in their own right:
Review of Prokofievs Romeo and Juliet complete ballet, Zuraitis:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/February%201990/42/813451/PROKOFI+EV.+Romeo+and+Juliet%E2%80%94ballet,+Op.+64.+Bolshoi+Theatre+Orchestra++Algis+Zuraitis.+Classics+for+Pleasure+0CD+CDCFPD4452+(two+discs,+nas%3A+142+minutes%3A+ADD).+From+EMI+SLS1650933+(883)
Reviews of Bachs Goldberg Variations, Gould:
http://www.npr.org/programs/wesat/features/2002/sept/gould/
http://www.sputnikmusic.com/review/32884/Glenn-Gould-Bach%3A-Goldberg-Variations/
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bach-Goldberg-Variations-BWV-988/dp/B0002ISFRU
Reviews of Bachs Sonatas and Partitas, Milstein:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/pdp/profile/AUPFJ7DHP16HO/ref=cm_cr_dp_pdp
http://www.epinions.com/review/pr-Bach_Sonatas_Partitas_Nathan_Milstein_Music/content_61056388740
Reviews of Surmans Westering Home:
http://www.allmusic.com/album/westering-home-r148391
http://rateyourmusic.com/release/album/john_surman/westering_home/
These are all available with a little effort for anyone who does not own them. Maybe the Prokofiev is a little more difficult to obtain but well worth the perseverance I feel.
Anywhos, it would please me if any of this proves helpful.
Happy listening |
Bravo Dgob: the most articulate and detailed account of the 'nude' sound that I've seen.
Do you have your power supply on spikes as well? The pic makes it look a bit elevated.
Do you prefer the 1982 GV to the 1955? |
