Trying to get some input on an issue that a few of us are debating.
Statement:
If you have never listened to any particular component, you can't have an opinion on how it sounds.
Answer:
I don't agree with that. Measurements provide a fairly good indication of how something will sound. That's the beauty of science -- it's not necessary to have first hand experience to make reasonable judgments. You likely disagree and that could be a difference in our background and education."
So, the issue at hand is, can tell how a component sounds without listening to it, and just go on specs? Or, do you have to listen to it, as well, because the specs don't tell the whole story?
"02-24-15: Rodman99999 Zd542- GEE, no kidding? That's why I asked what I did! "simply by knowing how accurate his clock is?"......."
It sounded like you referring to the statement in the OP. Also factor in my subconscious, as I'm kicking myself in the a$$ for starting in with the damn clock again. Yes, I know I only have myself to blame for it. So from this point on, I take a vow to never speak of the item in question ever again.
"02-24-15: Rodman99999 NOW: if the original question had only been, "Can a blind person tell what time it is, simply by knowing how accurate his clock is?"....... Rodman99999 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
Yes they can. They make special clocks for people with disabilities.
Are you serious? Specifications can give you some important information regarding how well a component is designed but it will most definitely not tell you how it sounds...unless you are tone deaf.
Mapman, oh, and another thing about my clock. It operates on TIME as opposed to say RFI/EMI, acoustic waves, vibration or things of that nature. But it's not a clock. Its actually set for time depending on where the customer is located, just not the Same Time as the local time. Pretty cool, huh?
I think I better change my statement before I start a riot. The Tice Clock was a clock. It did tell time, so I guess we can leave it a that. Tice also made line conditioners, in addition to clocks. Tice's line conditioners were not clocks, and therefore did not tell time. But they did condition the AC in some manner.
I do have one more question because I'm a little confused. I'm looking at my computer, and I noticed it shows what time it is in one of the corners. So the question is, do I have a computer or do I have a clock? If its just a clock, I'll be pissed because its way over priced compared to other clocks. And if it turns out to be a computer, I'm still upset because I now have to go out and buy a new clock. It seems like I just can't win here.
From 1 brand to another, you can find an amp, preamp, speaker etc, that spec very close or in the electronic side, even identical. I suspect, everyone listed above on this thread would hear the difference between the 2 amps, pre amps or speakers. Based on that, I disagree with the blanket statement. However, specs do contribute how amps sound and many could take 2 very differently spec'd amps (or circuit layout for that matter) and tell you how they in general would differ by what they see on paper.
I made no comments regarding "extra circuitry," but imagining I did could be symptomatic of some people's propensity to accept Imaginary Quasi Holistic Audio Bullshit Tweaks, know as "ICKBUTT." I will readily enjoy things I think work, but if I encounter things that don't work at all or seem to be the equivalent of snake oil, I'll continue to be astonished and snicker to myself (and others) in a haze of Luddite-esque self satisfaction. By the way, I have found that actual Snake Oil does work to enhance soundstaging and coherence when sprayed in a fine mist on YOUR MAMA.
Mapman, you know I hate to brag but what makes the Clever Little Clock so clever is that it doesn't even have to be plugged into the wall outlet. It's battery powered. It also has nothing to do with what you think it does, e.g. Power lines or even the audio signal anywhere in the system.
I was a Tice dealer, and, the closer you put the clock to the source, the smoother it all sounded. I had a few customers who heard dramatic differences, others, subtle. I am not saying there isn't snake oil in this industry, nor any other, for that matter. You either hear it, or you don't. I believe acute ears can hear differences, and I believe those same people, will not. The number of tweaks this industry has seen (heard), is amazing. VPI bricks, green markers, tip toe isolation devices, etc., all made differences, to these ears. Should not be debates. Either, yes, it makes a difference, or not. The other point I will make, is, how many people use live, unamplified music, as their reference ? I always have. This is supposed to be a fun and enjoyable industry, as music, and it's reproduction of it, fills the senses, for many of us. MrD.
Also, remember that when the Tice clock came out, AC conditioning was unheard of.
Neither here or there on the clock, but this particular statement is absolutely false. The clock came out about 1993 or so; my first dealership was using power line conditioning in about 1987; that was an older unit made by Superior Electric in the 1950s- it was chock full of oil-filled caps and vacuum tubes and used something called a Saturable Reactor as part of its operating principle). Power line conditioners have been around long enough for them to actually be older than many of the people on this thread. We are refurbishing some Elgar line conditioners in our shop right now that were made in the 1970s (and are still some of the best ever made).
Wolf, here is the pertinent portion of George Tice's letter to Stereophile regarding a angry letter to the magazine from a disgruntled customer. Enjoy.
"Regarding your question "What technology does the Clock offer?": TPT is a material treatment system which, when integrated with other systemsie, your electrical systemeliminates electron noise caused by the random and chaotic movement of electrons in a conductor. We will have a white paper explaining this process in further detail available by the time you receive this letter.
Regarding your comments on extra circuitry, no extra circuits have been added to the Clock. The Clock is only a carrier of the TPT technology. I realize this is a difficult concept for some people to grasp: the Clock has been treated with the TPT process. This is very much the same idea as cryogenically treating components. Those components are not visually modified or altered, but the treatment changes them on a molecular level. The same is true for our TPT process. As to the Audio Advisor mentioning that an additional chip was added to our TPT Clock, this is incorrect. The Audio Advisor does not send us proofs of their catalogs and advertisements before they go to print. They are in error regarding the chip. We did, of course, advise them as soon as we received our copy of their new catalog."
Geoffkait...we listened, and we (among many others) decided the Tice Clock was nonsense that time (pun alert) proved...as is the term "throwing out the negative results"...there were no "negative results," there were no results at all. Lars was a serious reviewer with amazing systems on hand to review, we weren't drinking, and your results may have differed but "obviously" you weren't there. Parallel line conditioner...man...
"A in high-end lunacy, a heap of fraudulent BS demonstrating the incredible capacity of audiophiles to be suckered by ANYTHING, and the distilled essence of hucksterism at its absolute worst. In fairness, I can now only say that I'm "extremely sceptical" of the Clock's claimed benefits."
The Tice Clock is a parallel line conditioner. What if they put it in an enclosure that looked more like a power product? Most audiophiles have some AC treatment in one form or another. Like I said in my last post, I think it was foolish of Tice to make a clock out of it. Something tells me that if they presented the it as a conditioner instead, people would be more open to consider it.
Ironic that the Tice Clock came up in this thread. I've never heard one but would have expressed an opinion on the product if asked. It's a product that begs to be summarily dismissed and that's what I'd have done instinctively. I bet a lot of other folks here share that opinion of the Clock despite never having heard one.
However, after this thread, I can no longer in good conscience state that the Clock is exhibit A in high-end lunacy, a heap of fraudulent BS demonstrating the incredible capacity of audiophiles to be suckered by ANYTHING, and the distilled essence of hucksterism at its absolute worst. In fairness, I can now only say that I'm "extremely sceptical" of the Clock's claimed benefits. Damn, this thread is making life less fun already.
Wolf, obviously Lars' system was not revealing enough, you don't follow instructions or you guys had too much to drink. As I said you can throw out the negative results. Furthermore, what with Tesla coils, cryogenics, cream electret, quantum parallel line purifiers, things of that nature, you can't assume by looking at something what it does, or if it's been treated.
The only value of the Tice Clock was timekeeping. And I did get to "hear" one at the late Lars Friedell's (possible spelling error alert) house (yes, THAT Lars) as he was a neighbor in CT. It is still my fave imaginary magical tweak and did sort of smell like roses...or maybe that was just Lars.
"That statement is true. You can have an opinion on how you believe the component will sound but, if you haven't heard it, you cannot speak to the actual sound."
I think there may have been a little confusion regarding that quote. I believe that some people took it as an arrogant or know it all statement, telling people that you can't have an opinion. That's not the case at all. Its a very specific comment, and in your quote above, you explain it exactly as how I meant it.
If you have never listened to any particular component, you can't have an opinion on how it sounds.
That statement is true. You can have an opinion on how you believe the component will sound but, if you haven't heard it, you cannot speak to the actual sound.
Tice: "The "Tice Clock" was a device intended to be plugged into the household current adjacent to the plug(s) used for audio devices. Physically, it was a Radio Shack clock that has been in some unspecified way "processed" to make electrons "coherent". Many people claimed to experience enormous improvements in terms of clarity, lowered noise floor, beauty of moonlight on water , the smell of roses, and what have you. As the following article explains, anything plugged in as a "parallel filter" in this way can have an effect for standard reasons and indeed, a parallel filter will work as well as an in-line filter in principle. (Soon after my article appeared, "parallel filter" devices using the principle of grounding RF appeared for sale--without credit naturally.) The Tice clock came and went. "Incoherent " electrons turned out to be enough for most people."
Richard Gray: Parallel Power Delivery
Patented parallel iron-core inductor technology is proven (after 1 million installations and counting) to provide instant current ondemand to power efficiently todays High Performance-Current hungry AV components and electronic systems.
Stabilizes AC Power Enhances AV performance Improves start up characteristics and Inrush response Provides additional Balanced AC Surge protection.
There's several examples, besides the above 2, that use a parallel design. Also, remember that when the Tice clock came out, AC conditioning was unheard of. Just like when aftermarket PC's first came out, everyone made fun of them too. No one would believe they made a difference until they heard it for themselves.
"02-21-15: Wolf_garcia I love this stuff: The Tice Clock was an infamous case of utter tweak silliness when Tice marketed a Radio Shack clock that was supposedly treated with some magic Tice mojo. Supposedly when plugged into any part of the electric circuit of a room containing audio gear, everything would sound better. It was complete bullshit, the clocks weren't treated with anything, and the product stands as a classic example of fraudulent hifi snake oil."
A lot of people say that but its really not true. The Tice Clock is a line conditioner. There's other conditioners on the market that work the same way. The big mistake was that they should have never made it into a clock. It devalued the product because when people saw it, they just saw the clock, and not the product that it was designed to be.
Wolf, hey, you got it all wrong. The clock was treated just the same way all the Tice power line conditions were treated. But, hey, my clock doesn't even plug into the wall so the Tice gizmo looks kind of tame next to mine.
I love this stuff: The Tice Clock was an infamous case of utter tweak silliness when Tice marketed a Radio Shack clock that was supposedly treated with some magic Tice mojo. Supposedly when plugged into any part of the electric circuit of a room containing audio gear, everything would sound better. It was complete bullshit, the clocks weren't treated with anything, and the product stands as a classic example of fraudulent hifi snake oil.
"If you have never listened to any particular component, you can't have an opinion on how it sounds." This applies to much more than just audio equipment.
Every manufacturer worth his salt uses specs to design their equipment. Then they listen. Any one who doesn't, I would give a very wide berth to.
In fact I ask the nay sayer's here to specs, if they can name one manufacture that doesn't use specs/measurements to design their equipment before they listen.
"Without measurements, it just opens the door wide open for people telling me that CDs sound better when they coat the edges with green paint. Abrew19 (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
You have to buy the real stuff. Never paint the edge of your CD's; green, or any other color. You need the expensive, secret formula, audiophile magic marker. Not just a regular marker, but a magic one.
Measurements are facts. Listening to a component enables you to form an opinion. Forming an opinion from measurements is called a guess, a shot in the dark because you haven't actually heard a component. Kind of reminds me of Japanese approach in the 70s and 80s, the better the specs the better the sound.
True, you can't tell how equipment sounds based only on measurements. But that's more a factor of us not having adequate measurements that are truly fit for purpose.
And we should always listen to equipment when spending our money, because in the end, all that matters is that our own ears are pleased.
But I want professional reviews to include measurements, and I want the professional reviewer to understand measurements and what they mean. Sorry but I don't trust other people's purely subjective opinions. There is just too much room for unchecked ramblings (Sam Tellig? althought I always enjoyed reading his well-written ramblings) and outright unethical behavior (see Corey Greenberg).
Without measurements, it just opens the door wide open for people telling me that CDs sound better when they coat the edges with green paint.
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