All Benchmark System Question

@regg This is one of the very first reviews on the AudioByte VOX. He has actually reviewed the HUB but I believe he could not publish it in Feb 2021. AudioByte likely asked him to hold of until they get the production issues sorted out (Covid related).

Audiobyte HydraVox 1-bit FPGA DAC Review - Hail Hydra! (soundnews.net)

@mapman The new KEF sub has a feature for apartment use.

I got permission to post this mini review of the Gustard X26 Pro. The A22 referenced is the Gustard A22. The A22 seems to sound like the DAC3B.

Now for the X26 PRO:

The X26 PRO is potentially the warmest sounding DAC I have ever had in my system. It literally makes digital sound closer to the warm sound of vinyl than any DAC I have had. However, this warm sound does not eliminate detail. This DAC passes more detail than any DAC I have ever had, period. It is an entirely different experience listening to this DAC compared to the A22. The X26 PRO has a seductively warm sound while presenting low level detail that is difficult to comprehend.

I am generally not one to get off on details in a recording that were not intended (like cars going by in the background that were caught by mics in the recording). But I was listening to Tin Pan Alley (SRV) on Couldn't Stand the Weather, and approximately 7 min and 30 sec into that song there is what sounds like a car horn go off in the far, far right deep in the background. I have probably listened to that track 50+ times, and I never, ever noticed that. Seriously, check it out. I first heard it on my hi-rez vinyl transcription. I literally had to replay that part several times as I thought originally it was a car horn coming from outside my house. I then went on to check the CD version of this album (as perhaps this was an artifact of the vinyl version). And sure enough it is in the CD version as well. Not quite as prominite, but I could still hear it without straining.

The X26 PRO has a better soundstage. I think one of the hardest things for components to do is create an image in the deep rear corners (outside of the speakers). The X26 does this better than the A22. My speakers disappear in the soundstage better with the X26 than the A22. The X26 also offers a wider soundstage.

The X26 has better overall micro and macro dynamics. At low volume levels the X26's sound is so good and seductive.

Anyway, I could go on, and on. But the bottom line is that the X26 PRO is in a different class of DACs from the A22. The A22 is a great DAC for $1250. But at $1500, the X26 PRO is an entirely different animal. If you want a more neutral sound, the A22 is more neutral. But if you want a more vinyl kind of warmth with digital, the X26 PRO is an amazing value and performer at $1500.

I will add to this with my review. 

A great DAC

Exactly! DAC will probably be swapped first. I read the review YYsantabarbara provided on the Gustard and it sounds like a fantastic option. The reviewer actually liked it better than the Benchmark DAC3 (he liked it better than almost every other DAC) and he was running through an HPA-4. Thanks to YYsantabarbara for the link. I will keep everyone posted when it’s in house (I should say apartment rather!)

Whoops did you say apartment?
Sub might not be a good idea in that case where there are neighbors nearby. 😉

So much disagreement over whether a different streamer makes a difference. I guess the point will be moot if there is a great DAC that has a streamer. I once heard an Ayre Codex that sounded surprisingly good (not a Benchmark system though). I am not looking to better the DAC 3B, just looking for a different flavor. The Sub is also on my list if I can find a place to put it-the fact of life in big city apartment living.

I will be surprised if changing streamers as suggested makes a big difference but you never know. With your high resolving gear perhaps. I’d try a different DAC at the source first, but that’s just me.

Also trying USB from streamer to DAC rather than coax or optical might be worth a try.

I’ve always used wifi for my hifi related network connections and find that works very well though there is a school of thought that says wired is better but also more subject to noise issues I suspect and hence also more problematic if so especially with a highly resolving system.

Regardless, I’d try the cheap/easy tweaks first before making any expensive changes with streamer. Just me. I’d also look at the sub option. Do it right to properly isolate and integrate the sub as needed (not hard) and that’s a clear win to start with. All you need is a sound meter app on your smartphone and a white noise internet station source to stream to get a sub integrated in pretty well. Of course with more bass there is potential for more room acoustics issues, but adding a sub to small speakers like those in a system like yours is likely most always a very good move.

So it sounds like as long as the streamer/ streamer DAC is connected by ethernet cable to the network, it’s fine if I am communicating with the streamer through my iphone over wi-fi, that is, the phone doesn’t have to have a wired connection to the Streamer. I will try one of the recommended streamers and then add a different DAC into the mix (unless the streamer I chose has a DAC. I also agree with the previous comment that there are limitations to the P3SER but they work well in my System. I will await YYsantabarbara’s thoughts on the Audiobyte. Hearing everyone’s thoughts on this I will wait before switching out any Benchmark gear. The HPA-4 also sounds amazing with my Focal Clear’s.

@regg the Aurrender does not support ROON (if that is important to you).

I had the pretty cool ROON READY Matrix Audio Mini-I 3 Pro DAC in the house for about 6 months ($899). I sent it off to my buddy who does not want to struggle with streaming. It has a lot of streaming choices.

I tried 3 of them and compared.

- built-in network streaming using Ethernet
- my old Sonore microRendu via USB
- built-in WiFi on the DAC

The first 2 wired setups sounded a bit better and was infinitely more reliable. On Wifi I would have music playing for a few hours then all of a sudden the music got all scrambled and I had to restart the DAC. There are some posts on streaming threads that give some arguments as to why WiFi is bad for streaming. The only company that I know that advocates for WiFi is the well regarded Auralic.

You connect your streamer directly to your network, either by eternet cable or buy a wifi extender. You plug the extender next to your equipment and plug a short Ethernet cable into that. You can get a little extender that plugs into the wall like a wall wart. Then you use an app on your iPhone, or preferably iPad to control the streamer. I works incredibly well. Aurender has a great app that shows all your music… Qobuz, any you place on the streamer storage, and any that happens to be on your network storage. It does an amazing job of integrating all the music you have access to. It will cashe it so it can help make up for any short network latency. The better the streamer the more it makes up for network issues.

So what I am hearing is that I can make an immediate improvement by switching out the Node 2i for another streamer (Aurender, Lumin). I think I can get ahold of some of them from Music Direct, Audio Advisor, etc for a trial. Here is a question though. I am currently streaming to the Node 2i connected to DAC 3B via coax connection. Node is connected via ethernet to router/modem. I am streaming Quobuz through wi-fi from my iphone to the Node 2i. Am I losing anything by doing that? Do I need to connect the phone or tablet via cable to the streamer? Kind of hard if I am moving around the apartment a lot and want to change music.
I am anxious to hear how the Audiobyte works out.

These streamer suggestions are great. I had a great improvement in my sound when I went with a Ubiquiti network switch ($200) and fibre optic cable directly from that to my Sonore OpticalRendu. Then from there USB to my DAC.  

When I first heard this setup I was amazed at how much an improvement over my 5 year old Sonore microRendu. I actually bought a second "OpticalRendu for ROON Only" ($999) for my AudioMirror DAC. My streaming quest is now done.

I have a noisy network with my music server on a cheap computer far away in another room. That room is setup on my home network by a PowerLine subnet. So nothing anyone would say is noiseless. However, when the bits get to that last mile before the DAC I believe the fibre kills the noise. Otherwise, my setup should sound awful.

I am going to buy the AudiByte VOX | ZAP DAC next week. It has built-in streaming that is supposed to be advanced (on the not yet available HUB module). It will be interesting to compare the OpticalRendu with the built-in network streaming on the AudiByte.

If the source is bad then on the BM stack the sound is bad.

Definitely start with the source then. See if you can borrow one of the less expensive Aurender Streamers. The difference will be jaw dropping. Also try Qobuz streaming service… free for a month. I started digital streaming about 15 years ago… incrementally upgrading all components piece by piece from an iPod on both my headphone system and main system. I held off the longest on getting a dedicated streamer… it’s only spitting out bits, right? Wrong… it is the source… everything that follows is completely dependent and contingent on it. It is the key source like in an analog system… the TT, then phono stage, then preamp… etc. they all matter, but a noisy poor start equals highly amplified carefully crafted poor sounding stuff. I recommending at least as much as any other component. My streamer is about 20% more than most of the other components in my system components and well worth it! I got there incrementally so know the intermediate steps.

My digital end is now very comparable to my high end analog end.

So many great ideas, thanks! I am streaming from my iphone over wi-fi to a Node 2i so maybe that could be improved. I am so itching to hear Coda amp and preamp but I would have to sell the Benchmark stuff. If you haven’t heard Benchmark yet and are in a position to it’s really worth it. Yes, there is no harmonic distortion but if the recordings are good to very good the music, even out of my little P3SER’s is amazing. If you are into tubes don’t bother though.

Mhdt might be another good choice for a different sounding DAC. 

In my experience you can venture a bit too far in the too detailed / analytical direction and that all recordings will sound better with better less analytical component(s) more musical. I would start at the signal source, if that is harsh and cold then everything else takes on that cast. For instance a high quality music streamer is going to sound leagues better than a PC. If the source is excellent then move to the DAC. But the key is not to look at this as a 20% of the recording problem... this is a whole system problem. There are bad recordings... sure... but it is easy to have a system that makes all recording sound good,.. just some are not as good as others.

@regg This thread is perfect and I have the same exact conundrum regarding my system.

Although I don't have the HPA-4 I do have the Benchmark Dac 3L and two AHB2's feeding my speakers (Raidho D1.1) and I too was considering adding the Audio Mirror Troubador to add some euphonic color/ warmth for those recordings where the instruments seems get in the way of the music and seems a little flat.....it's almost to precise if that makes sense. It's not necessarily a bad recording issue so much as just distracting or boring.

Anyway, you got advice from @yyzsantabarbara whose input I value (a lot) for all things Benchmark:) so now I'm going to have to check out the Gustard x26 pro too, so thank you both for that nugget. The truth is I have a hard time distinguishing between Dac's so I want a quality Dac on the opposite end of the spectrum of the Benchmark strengths to see where that gets me.

Sub's next.

Good luck

@regg I forgot to mention that the store that has the Gustard also has a 30 or 45 day home trial.

I personally want to try the Benchmark stack on the Yamaha NS5000. I think it would be great.

When I demoed Harbeth I thought it may be very good with the BM stack. 

That is an idea I have considered Mapman but I am a little concerned about losing the magic of the P3SERs’s by adding a sub. I would love to try it out though to see how it sounds.
In the interim I may very well play with the DACs to see where that takes me. As YYsantabarbara has stated, the Benchmark gear really is magical when it’s right and it’s right most of the time. With the Benchmark stack it’s hard to believe the midrange magic coming out of those P3SER’s!

That is a great point about the lowest octave.

Here is Benchmarks guidance to hook up subs to the AHB2

REL Subwoofers with AHB2 Power Amplifier - Benchmark Media Systems

If 80% of recordings sound really good then you may be hitting the bullseye because some are just not very good. I’d leave well enough alone perhaps unless there is some specific thing on certain recordings of particular interest you know you are missing out on having heard it elsewhere, etc.

I would love to try the all BM stack with my Ohm Walsh speakers. It’s on my audio bucket list of things to try. Anybody out there with that combo?

Maybe  adding a sub properly set up to fill in low end or even with a crossover to offload some work from the little Harbeths would help take things further in the desired direction via addition and tweaking rather than replacement. 

Small speakers can only do so much. It’s pretty much assured you are missing  the lowest octave with any small speaker like that and offloading work from them would probably help them go louder and clearer with less congestion as well. 

Audiosaurus rex, I have heard great things about the RME dac as well. YY Santabarbara you are absolutely right about the Benchmark Stack. When it’s right it’s transcendent and that is 80 percent of the time. It’s funny, I can pick up a Krell K300i for a good price but I’d have to sell all the Benchmark stuff and I couldn’t do it. Coda is very enticing, but again, I’d have to sell the HPA and I can’t.

No, my BM stack is number 1. I have taken the BM gear out (moved it downstairs) several times the past 6 months and always missed it. I replaced it with the following.

- CODA CSiB integrated
- KRELL K-300i integrated
- Gustard X26 Pro as a preamp
- D-Sonic amp

Maybe more stuff that I cannot remember. I liked the above stuff a lot and I thought they were great. However, I always missed the BM stack when I did not have it in the office.

The AHB2 is not ideally suited for my Thiel CS3.7 (even in mono). It sounds very nice but a more powerful amp gives a more impactful sound on these specific speakers. So I do not use the AHB2 on the floor standers but I will never sell the AHB2. 

In a few years, when my young son no longer uses the living room for his gear I will put the BM stack in there with a speaker ideally suited for the AHB2.

I agree with you that the BM stack is not great on everything. I blame that on the source music in those cases. However, in that situation I think my hybrid BM + CODA approach works nicely. If I did not have the RAAL SR1a I think the Gustard X26 Pro alone would solve that 20-30% perfectly.

I would check out the RME-ADI-FS, great dac with Bass and Treble adjustments. 

I may take you up on that. Would you sell the Benchmark system for the all Coda System? Tough choices!

@regg BTW - welcome to A’gon.

I sold my AMT3SE DAC on Sunday, Meze Empy headphones (today), and a KRELL integrated last week so I have an itch to buy a DAC.

I think a better combo than the AHB2 and the CODA 07x would be the CODA #8 and the HPA4. I am going to get the CODA #8 later in the year. I am currently happy with a $1500 D-Sonic M3a 800s Class D amp. It is not as good as the AHB2 but it works better on my speakers. I use the AHB2 on the office SR1a and also my downstairs mini system.

If you want another review of the Gustard X26 Pro send me a DM in A’gon. Someone I know bought the Gustard and wrote me his thoughts on it. Exactly how I felt but he is more eloquent in his descriptions.

BTW - if you get the Gustard X26 Pro (a silver one) and want to save some money via a trade. I have a 2 week old silver Gustard X26 Pro and want to get a black one instead. The seller in China replaced my 2 month old unit because I had an issue with using it as a preamp. It cost me $116 to send by USPS to China and they sent me a new one. Great seller.

YY Santanabarbara,
That is so helpful, thanks! I am itching to get that Coda preamp but I just can’t justify it yet. As you know, when the Benchmark is right it is unbeatable! Just once in a while I feel the need for a little more noise! The Gustard DAC sounds great and please keep me posted on the Audiobyte DAC!

@regg Well I have everything you mentioned. I bought the CODA 07x because it is a bit warmer than the HPA4 and also has dual XLR outputs. It is amazing with my RAAL SR1a headphones which need warmth, though less today with a fabulous new SR1a specific Convolution filter.

I missed the HPA4 on my office floor standers so I have both preamps setup again today in my office with all my sources. I have 15 foot XLR’s on the 2 preamps that I easily change at the amp end whenever I want to use a particular preamp.

So with all that upfront I can tell you that I know exactly how they compare to each other. They are both great preamps. The CODA is warmer and nosier than the HPA4. That bugs me a little bit but it sounds great with music and the hiss is not noticeable when music is playing. The HPA4 is extremely quite so you notice other gear that is not as quiet. You already know how detailed and amazing the Benchmark stack sounds. The CODA 07x makes things a little less detailed and maybe lively. For example, when I listen to Led Zeppelin I prefer the HPA4. As I write this I am listening to some Bobby Womack on the CODA 07x and it is great.

I would not get the CODA 07x in your situation. I would get the Gustard X26 Pro DAC for $1500 from these guys.

Gustard X26 Pro Balanced DAC Preview (shenzhenaudio.com)

It has that extra warmth that the DAC3B does not have. Though on some music I prefer the DAC3B. The Gustard is an incredible DAC and do not let the price fool you.

I just sold the AudioMirror Tubadour III SE DAC and want a replacement for it on my office. Something a little warmer than the DAC3B (for my RAAL SR1a specifically). I prefer the Gustard X26 Pro to the AMT3SE. My Gustard X26 Pro was moved to my downstairs mini system since I brought the HPA4 to my office again. So I was thinking of getting a second Gustard X26 Pro for the office. That is how much of a fan I am.

The other DAC that I am considering is the AudioByte Vox | ZAP at 3x more cost. The 2 reasons for this choice is that the AudioByte was compared with the Gustard X26 Pro by a reviewer I like and he gave compelling reasons to have both DACs. The AudioByte will also fit better in my crowded rack compared to the Gustard. My tastes in audio also align well with this reviewer. Soundnews - Everything about sound

Speakers are Harbeth P3SER. Really is amazing 75-80 percent of the time, but sometimes the System needs a little warmth, thus the question.

What are the speakers?

BTW that is exactly the system I would love to try in my house so I am envious.