Amp for Acoustic Zen Crescendo 2 ?

Good for you! Most would not attempt this.  Well done. 

i was going to say contact www.audiothesis.com (the mastersound distributor) he has a trade in at a great price.i own one powering a pair of rosso fiorentino volterra speakers 87 db 6 ohm(3ohm min) and the sound is to die for.

but he has purchased the pass labs.

I have them with mastersound compact 845 SET integrated.
Awesome.

I have a question for those of you with the Line Magnetic 508ia. I've recently purchased this amp, and I'm using it with a pair of Acoustic Zen Adagios - soon to be Crescendos. My question for the 508ia users is are you using a preamp/linestage with the amp? Also, to those using the EML XLS 300B with the Psvane 805-ATs, what input tubes are you using? 

@wlutke thanks! Did you go into Robert's new facility in Escondido or the older place in San Diego ? I have also been to the newer one and find the sound is just ok compared to his setup in the shows with the Triode Corp.
I have been trying all sorts of placement, hearing it for couple of days and finding another position sounds slightly better. It looks like a forever daunting task. What I am generally finding is placing well out from the front wall increases depth but also losses room reinforcement and could sound lean depending on the room. I guess getting a balance is the key.

debjit_g,
Placement in my living room is dictated by the rooms use.  They are where they are, I'm between them.  Within the small footprint each speaker is allowed, there is one elusive placement and toe-in where tone, balance, focus and imaging coincide to my taste.  I say try every placement and toe-in until you find it to your taste.  I'm sure you've found they're very sensitive to set-up to a half inch and less.  
FWIW I've been to Mr. Lee's shop and listened to his Crescendo 2 set-up with the speakers well out from the front wall.  I was unimpressed, bored actually.  Too lean for me.

Hi Folks,

I have the Crescendo Mk2 for sometime but the speaker placement is quite challenging. My room is 19x15x8. In all shows Robert places these speaker away of the front wall not every room will have the luxury of. At times I have seen that the listening position is way too close because of the speakers being away from the front wall. Wondering how far are the speakers from the front wall in your setup and what is the listening position ?

Here's the latest.  I did an in-home demo of the Pass Labs XA25.  The synergy is so good that I couldn't send it back!  Rather than reinvent the wheel, here's a review.  I wish I could white like this.  
http://www.xtremeplace.com/yabbse/index.php?PHPSESSID=7692066bdcef1c4f539b781eabee3280&topic=244...

they respond really well to biwiring

@kdude66 

Did you ever get a chance to use the 508 from your friend?

I have a Pass Labs XA30.5 and PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium preamp that I think would net me some $$ for a new tube set if I were to get the 508. How are the stock tubes? Has anyone used Pass Labs before?

Rogue cronus magnum 2 

My goodness,

I would be beyond upset also.
I see really no reason not to be accommodating to a buyer with money in hand.

Best of luck to you,
Kenny.

So sorry to hear that!

ATB,
Wig

Update - I've saved up enough for the Line Magnetic LM508IA but I'm afraid I'll not buy a new one.  I contacted Tone Imports for a price, shipped to San Diego.  They forwarded it to a dealer in L A. who emailed me a quote.  I responded that the $424 state tax was a deal breaker whereupon they tried to sell me another product.  I emailed Whetstone Audio with the same question.  Well, the result speaks for itself.  Censored.  


Me: What is the total cost shipped to 92021? Thanks.
 
Whetstone: $6000 plus shipping. 

 Me: Did you mean full retail of $4995 plus shipping? 

Whetstone: No, I meant $6000 plus shipping. $1000 uncharge for shopping out of state which I would pass on to the dealer you’re f***ing over. Your Welcome! Brian 

Me:  I sent the same email to Tone Imports who forwarded it. I never even contacted the dealer, he contacted me. I was exploring my options. I was going to buy at full retail + tax + shipping if your shop couldn't or wouldn't sell to me. I expected a polite explanation, not an angry child. Now, thanks to you, I'm not going to buy at all. It's you who f***ed over that retailer, not me. I'm forwarding this to him BTW. > ***hole.

I rarely rant but this guy sucks donkey balls.
Bill

Hi Bill,

Clever idea trying the 0.01 uf cap in parallel with the 0.47 uf.  That would presumably cause the filtering provided by the cap combo to become more effective at the RF frequencies corresponding to the switching that occurs in the output stage.  As you no doubt realize, as a general rule of thumb a smaller cap such as 0.01 uf will tend to act more purely like a capacitor at RF frequencies than a larger one such as 0.47 uf.

And I see no reason to doubt that the improvements you perceived were real.  Perhaps the reason is that the greater amount of RF garbage that was previously being put out by the amp had been finding its way to some other point in the system, or even some point earlier in the signal path within the same amp, resulting in effects at audible frequencies via intermodulation or AM demodulation or other such effects that can cause inaudible frequencies to have audible consequences.  Although I suppose it's also conceivable that the RF had been directly affecting the speaker's sonics in some manner.

Best regards,
-- Al

Thanks Al.

Here is why I ask. I mod lots of gear and usually hear differences. I have modified this unit removing those Wima .47uf caps at the output. I replaced them with some decent Jupiter HT caps. I did hear an improvement and that is fine. However, I then decided to add the new Duelund silver foil bypass caps .01uf. Ok, now the improvement is VERY noticeable. So much so I had to ask you this question. The improvement across the board is very obvious and good. Trying to get an objective basis for my subjective experience.

I loved the unit before the mod and now I am smiling even bigger. We read a lot about expectation bias and I wonder sometimes. I felt I was open minded during this mod. Right now am hearing a considerably improved sound. It is very easy to hear the differences, but I have to wonder why the builder did not try and improve on that Wima part. I know it costs etc...I looked inside the unit and that particular part/position just stuck out.

It never ceases to surprise me of the level of sound refinement and improvement that can be had on highly regarded and reviewed gear with just a couple of nice upgrades. Or is it expectation bias? 😕 

I have completed mods that I did not like and many that I have.  

Hi Bill,

I’m one who certainly agrees that capacitors can sound different, to a greater or lesser degree depending on the circuit application, of course.

In this case I assume the cap is in parallel with the output, rather than in series, and therefore it may tend to be somewhat less critical than say a coupling cap that is in series with a signal. On the other hand, though, at 20 kHz a 0.47 uf cap would have an impedance of about 17 ohms (while having a proportionately higher impedance at lower frequencies), which means that within the audible frequency range its impedance is not high enough to be considered to be negligible in relation to the impedance the speaker presents to the amp.

So my speculative guess is that an upgrade stands a good chance of being worthwhile, but of course it’s hard to say with any kind of certainty.

Best regards,
-- Al

@almarg ,

I have a question for you. The Lyngdorf does use a very small inductor and .47uf cap on the output just before the speaker binding posts. How important do you think the quality, sound wise, of the cap is in this position? Since the entire signal, it is in the signal path, is going through the cap I would think this is not a place to skimp on a $2 cap? 

This assumes ones thinks caps sound different. I do 😁

You are correct Al as usual.  

Wlutke 7-24-2017
I've researched the Lyngdorf and the idea of room correction is appealing.  God knows my room could use it.   On the other hand the idea of sending square waves to the speakers and having them do the smoothing curbs my enthusiasm.  No D/A conversion?  It could be the future.  I'll wait and see for now.

While Lyngdorf's writeups could be interpreted to mean that square waves are being sent to the speakers, I'm pretty certain that is not the case.  If it were the case the 2170's excellent THD numbers would be absurdly poor, not to mention that it would make most speakers decidedly unhappy :-)

Most likely the design uses a combination of an inductor and a capacitor at its output to filter out the high frequency (ultrasonic and RF) content of the pulse width modulated square waves, just as is done in pretty much all other class D amps.  That amounts to converting the square waves to sine waves, or in the case of a music signal, to a combination of sine waves at various frequencies.

Regards,
-- Al
 

Yeah, the seller is getting a new face plate for it or so the listing says.  

grannyring,
Thanks for the heads up.  I'm still saving up.  I probably wouldn't go for that pair anyway.  One looks like it was dropped in a parking lot!

Here is the link.   

http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649369326-electrocompaniet-aw180/

@wlutke 

Did you purchase an amp as yet? If you should decide to buy SS, then I saw this set of amps that are just spectacular. They offer the type of sound and improvements you mentioned in your first post. They would be a great pairing with your speakers.  Monoblocks, but with a smaller foot print. 

Understand if you want a tube amp as they are also wonderful. Just another option should you need it. 

Electrocompaniet amps are very musical, tube like, SS amps.  I do not know the seller at all as an FYI.  

Model AW180. US Audio Mart 

Hello Bill,
I don’t believe that I’m missing any particular point of yours. You are excited about what is new,different and innovative and you reference the Lyngdorf as an example. This makes perfect sense to me as you have actual experience with it (ownership) and most importantly you’re very happy with it. I thought I was pretty clear in that acknowledgement.

I mentioned the Deviaolet as an example of listening disappointment after all the praise it received for innovation and performance. As I wrote above, the Lyngdorf may/could be a better (perhaps much better) audio product  than the Deviaolet. Frankly I believe that both of us have been clear and straightforward in our postings on this thread. We both have recognized and have written that wlutke has excellent options from which to choose.

I would say that any number of the amplifiers mentioned thus  far would mate well with his Crescendos and this certainly includes the Lyngdorf and its one box solution . Wlutke expressed an interest in the Line Magnetic and I can understand why. You, I and others are just offering what we feel are worthy suggestions to a fellow audiogon member. As both of us often recommend, listen/audition when ever the oppression presents itself.
Charles

wlutke,  You do have many good choices in front of you.  I suggest actually listening to a couple in your system before buying. Some of the amps I mentioned can be tried in your home and kepted or returned. Nice option for sure.

The Lyngdorf is one choice that would bring many changes including selling your preamp, cabling etc... So it would require more changes and may not be the most attractive option to you? I shared several others based on my actual experience with them.  All great options also. 

Your speakers are fantastic and there is a great big world out there of options.  Enjoy the process and your music! 

Charles, for some reason you are narrowing my comments down to a particular brand?  Devialet? Your missing the point it seems even though I have tried to be clear. I suppose this happens often on threads like this. Hard to fully express some things  in such short bursts.  Our frame of reference and perspective is very differet regarding present day audio innovation and most likely on innovation in general. You look back and focus on examples that cause you say " been there, heard that and nothing special here" My perspective is different and no reason to go into it here. 

Hi wlutke,
You definitely have numerous good options available to you. Very knowledgeable and experienced people have posted on your thread and I respect all of them. My gut feeling is that the LM 508ia will make you as genuinely happy as it has for wig. As much as you love your bottlehead system this would be a step forward and upward in that same direction in my humble opinion. 
Best wishes with whatever option/path you finally choose.
Charles

Hi Wig,
Yes, Balanced AC power for an audio system is an excellent decision.  I have used the BPT 3.5 Signature plus in my system for over 8 years.  All components (including SET  mono blocks) are plugged into it. The improvement it provides is substantial compared with plugged directly into wall (dedicated circuit 20 amps). Wig, your system must just flat out sing!  You've made some wise choices concerning your system. 
Charles 

wlutke,

I haven't noticed a real difference in room temperature with the LM running 4-5 hours daily and I live in the desert.

Another piece of equipment that contributed to my sound system is Core Power Technologies Equi-Core 1200 Balanced line conditioner; the best I've heard in my system after owning 5-6 other brands.

Wig

I've researched the Lyngdorf and the idea of room correction is appealing.  God knows my room could use it.   On the other hand the idea of sending square waves to the speakers and having them do the smoothing curbs my enthusiasm.  No D/A conversion?  It could be the future.  I'll wait and see for now.
The Line Magnetic still holds my attention. If the (400 Watt draw) LM adds SET sound to the Zens I will gladly turn up the AC.  I have a Bottlehead SET system in the garage and love it.  

Wig,
The 805 tube has a reputation for high quality sound but for whatever reason isn't used nearly as often as the 845 or the 211 for that matter. 
Charles 

Bill,
I recall the same type of enthusiastic "the future is here now " talk with Devialet one box solutions that would render all else inferior.  Sorry, when I heard this brand/products I was underwhelmed to be polite.  Lyngdorf may be a better sounding product,  similar type of hype and predictions.  I just listen. 
Charles 

Wig,

Not sure if there is a sound difference between 845 or 805 tubes?

I would say from from my experience from either owning or listening to both of these big transmitter tubes they are more alike having several sonic qualities than being dissimilar.With equal implementation of same level of quality output transformers and each individual circuit design supporting the proper electrical parameters for each tube.Also would need good strong pwr supply's in each type of amp.

I personally have always liked the 805's vs the 845's,
They sounded more balanced and didn't have the upper frequency livelyness that a 845 sometimes can have.I owned a pair of the Mastersound 845 mono's last year but I didn't keep them very long.

And Offcourse I haven't heard all the different amps that use these big tubes.
Maybe someone else will have more insight on this question.

Kenny.

Understand fully stfoth. I really do. I will always have "some" tube amp in my home as I am in love the design and building of these pieces. 

Let's build this unit Charles. A DHT 300b tube output amp with SOTA room correction and built in dac. We can address further noise reduction with a cutting edge hybrid pre and amp section. 

Charles, my noise comment goes for all other system combinations I have experienced ranging from all tube to all SS and a mix of the two. Noise is a result of many things beyond a tube. I am not saying, did not say, the Lyngdorf is the latest and greatest. I am not saying, did not say, it is as good as the LM508. It is different and does some things better for sure. Cannot compare the two as the Lyndorf unit should be used on its own with no separate dac or preamp. It's greatness in found when utalizing all it does as a complete system. However, I am saying it represents what is coming - gives a taste of it. What is coming in the digital domain with all in one units will in fact render today’s tube and other non-tube gear a distant second. The Lyndorf unit is not some sort of holy grail unit in my opinion, but it does address areas that innovation will continue to refine and improve. Innovation, in this regard, will indeed be most positive for every flavor of aphile.

Being open minded is a reference to all aphiles and our individual biases and experiences. Innovation will transcend this limited perspective.

Not sad IMO if the modern all in digital  one box solution actually sounds better, that’s the question.I will buy a one box component if it has superior sound quality compared to what I currently have. Best sound wins.
Charles 

I'd love to hear a direct comparison of the Lyngdorf and the LM 508ia.  This is the epitome of old school  versus New school 😊😊
Charles 

Wig,
It's very interesting to me how tubes are often chastised as yesterday's technology and their "noise" issues yet they continue to survive  (and sound superb when done properly). Surely on technical grounds the Vitus trounces the 1930s technology of the Line Magnetic's SET topology.  You owned both and let the ears decide. I'll concede the Vitus may just mate better with a different speaker. I've no doubt that your LM 508ia is fabulous with the Crescendos. 
Charles 

@charles1dad 

Several other Vitus owners said the same thing and they were using 98 db high efficiency speakers; maybe that's why we see this amp matched up with Magico or YG Acoustics in reviews, a very dynamic speaker with aluminum type drivers.

After speaking with them, it peaked my curiosity since they were totally satisfied with their LM 219 IA 22 Watt SET and the 508 IA was recently released. Triode from Japan was on my list as well and is what Robert uses during shows (Mono Block) but the 22 Watt Integrated was over $9K and LM has the same build quality with twice the power solidified my decision... Not sure if there is a sound difference between 845 or 805 tubes? 

Wig

Bill,
That’s quite a soapbox you’re perched upon 😊
Seriously I know we’re both after the best sound quality and music reproduction we can realistically obtain in our respective homes. I am not sure of you references to an "open mind " . Are you perhaps suggesting that your decision to purchase an all in one digital component equates to this status?

I’m open minded in the true sense of the term and this is why I would never question your audio system decisions, Absolutely not. To each their own. We all determine through trial and error what works out best for us sonically. The Lyngdorf could be all that you claim. If an opportunity arose for me to hear one I’d happily try it.

I’ve heard the lower noise arguement in reference to tubes ad nauseum. All audio devices have some forms of coloration and character, no exceptions. I’ve listen to many audio components over many years (as you have as well) I judge simply on what I hear.

New and innovative is inevitable but doesn’t imply better, there are always hits and also misses, success and failure. I sincerely appreciate your energetic enthusiasm for the Lyngdorf. I may share your enthusiasm if I ever hear one, who knows?

Admittedly I harbor some level of skepticism when something is touted as the latest and greatest and will make all that came before it obsolete. Time and exposure will tell. Bill I enjoy the discussion and I hope the Lyngdorf brings you many years of sonic joy.
Charles

Many great attributes about the LM is that it sounds wonderful at low listening level, I turned it up a notch or two to simulate an average volume level but I listen typically lower and probably peaking at 75 db.

One of the most fascinating things I have discovered with output tube amplifiers even though they don't have the low end grip of the best solid-states, they make up for it with better mid-bass, sonic presentation with clean and taught bass; you actually hear more bass.

Definitely try as many of combos as possible to see which one suites your listening environment and taste.

I listened to both Vitus and LM side-by-side with the music I listen to the most and LM was head and shoulders above in every category and the LM has gotten much better with burn-in and tube upgrades; it's amazing how punchy this 48 Watt unit competes with a 350+ Watt power-house...


Wig

For the OP. The Lyngdorf 2170 I own with my Crescendo speakers does not sound like a 50 watt PP tube amp, or 845, or 805 amp. There are tradeoffs. There are two main benifits this unit brings to your system. First, It removes noise you had no idea was mixed in with your favorite music. It is uncanny and arresting at first. Noise always sounds louder and even impressive at first. However, it is robbing your system and ears of fidelity. I hear more of the music and all that was intended in the recording. Yes, I can turn it up and want to because the noise is greatly reduced . I am sure the future will bring even more improvement.

Secondly, What the room correction did for my system’s sound was also arresting. Both these things outweigh the lack of "tubes" reality in my system. Again, there are always tradeoffs. At least for now, the future will bring far less☺️

Kenny you just wrote exactly what I am thinking and chose not to share🙂

One box solutions without all the ICs, power cords, digital cables, longer signal paths, additional noise and complexity are indeed the future. No doubt about it. What is coming, and here now for room correction, will be and is so impressive! Our walls and rooms will be invisible to our future systems! This alone will and has brought sonic improvements impossible not that long ago. We will be able to use software and small chips (something like this) to taylor the sound if you want. Want that DHT SET sound, then you can have it without the additional noise. Want that 100 watts of Class A SS sound, then you can have it without all the heat. Want absolute neutrality, you can have it. So much more than I can think of on my own.

I am an innovation professional and sense we are in the midst of historic sonic improvement. These are special times and unique in all of audio history. The technology is more disruptive in nature than even the tubes to SS thing that happened decades ago.

Anyway, now is the time to have an open mind and explore the possibilities. I am very attracted to tubes on so many levels, but the reality is I must be open to a future which will bring many wonderful options.

I will end my little "excitable boy" post with one word......noise. Until you hear a system/electronics that has all but eliminated it, you just don't understand all the noise you are living with in your system. Noise is sonic bliss's enemy #1.  It obscures detail, nuance, tone, ebb & flow, and emotion at all volumes. Innovation will incarcerate this sonic criminal.