Hi Robert
Pioneer service all Exclusive products themselves. Part of their policy when they introduced the top of range brand in Japan was to provide lifetime servicing - you pay for it now obviously, but it was quite reasonable cost.
The tonearm is generally what required most/all of the servicing, mainly due to the damping fluid sometimes getting into the arm due to not filling or emptying the damping cup correctly. Touch wood, most else is bulletproof.
I had mine serviced by Pioneer before it was shipped to Australia, however I had a friend who was living in Japan at the time that picked up the table and drove it to Pioneer for the service before shipping it to me.
I am not sure if your seller in Japan can and is willing to do that. If you buy from a shop like hifido, they will do that for you I believe.
good luck and let us know if/ when you get it. |
Hi, all. This is particularly for Downunder and Jwfabrie - do you have any details you can share on the Japanese service center for Exclusive gear? I am considering a purchase of a P3, but would love to get it serviced in Japan before it is shipped to the USA.
And if you could also share the adjustments on the tonearm that would be most appreciated!
Thanks in advance,
Robert |
Congrats Voraratc, wonderful table
I have the P3 manual if you want it - In Japanese :-) The P3A is functionally the same table with slightly different tonearm - mainly in the arm wand.
The only difficult thing about the table is the damping fluid that goes into the top of the tonearm moat. Inject it through a plastic syringe up to the line on the inside.
cheers |
I just aquired exclusive p3 a. Does anyone have a service manual or user manual ? |
It sounds fabulous. I'm a believer. Worth the pain to get it. |
Very, very nice! Enjoy it. |
Congrats Jasper. Looks beautiful
Enjoy!! |
Just got mine today and it sounds fabulous so far with a Technic EPC 205mk3 i put on, quite a bit better than my other DD, a slate SP10mk2 and a few idlers i have. Initial impression is one of great bass, impressicve oundstage size , very dynamic and yet refined. Very happy so far. Now some eye candy.. P3 frontP3 and Micro |
Downunder,
Thanks for the comparison. That's what I would have expected to hear. So, in a way your thread has come full circle and you've answered the initial question yourself.
Based on my experience, I agree. That's why I love my sp-10s and have an interest in all top DDs. Once they're properly isolated they seem to all behave quite similarly. That continousness and bass slam are due to the fact that there are no transients complex enough to slow these things down. In fact, if you forgot to dry brush the LP before start up go ahead and do it while playing. The table still won't back down. Legend has it that the mk3 held speed with a man standing on the platter.
Enjoy the P3. It's a gem. Maybe one day I'll end up with one(or the DP 100, PS-X9, or L-D07). Too many tables, too little space. |
Hi Sonofjim.
Differences between the P3 and P10. Control, continousness and excecution in reporducing music. The P3 has the best bass control that I have heard from a table, in that it seems to be able to start and stop notes so fast it appears continous in doing it. This frees up musical detail and freedom overhang in the mid range. top to bottom coherence is uncanny.
The P10 has that simlar family sound, but just a bit looser all round. Still a really nice table.
TW AC-3. Bigger/looser bass v the DD's. has a larger soundstage both wide and deep v the P3. In direct comparison can sound a little soft or notes not as precise. background is a little dark v the P3. OTOH The AC-3 is more forgiving and does add some nice bass weight and spread on brighter/tighter recordings which does come in handy with some of my modern/rock alternative LP's.
Which one do I play more - I would probably say the table that has the Ortofon A90 on it.
If I had a gun to my head to choose only one table, it would be the P3. having all of the tables is great fun thou.
cheers |
No matter how well engineered it was in 1980, caps is caps. After 20 or more years, any electrolytic in any component should be changed out in favor of new. If the thing works without that service, fine, but there is a finite chance that it could work better with new caps. If Pioneer serviced it prior to or after sale, then they likely changed any cap that displayed either leakage of DC voltage or leakage of electrolyte (which comes later after DC leakage has already started to occur and can damage physically nearby elements of the circuit). My SP10 Mk3 is NOS, yet Bill Thalmann tells me there were physically leaky electrolytics here and there, after 27 odd years since manufacture. He opined that it was a good thing I did not try to run the table prior to having him service it. |
Downunder,
What differences do you find between the P3 and P10. Often, a higher model number would indicate a more advanced design. That doesn't appear to be the case here(as in the sp-10 and sp-15).
What table do you listen to the most((AC-3, P3, P10)? |
Hi Gents
The difference between P3 & P3a is the slightly upgraded tonearm. The plinth/motor unit sound the same according to Pioneer technicians. as mentioned in vintage knob, the changes in s/n ratio was new measurements, not better table.
as Jwfabrie mentioned, Pioneer Japan do the service on any Exclusive product for life. My P3 was serviced, but generally the main issues are damping fluid in the inside of the tonearm, so they generally do a dismantle and clean.
My P10 had no service, however it has worked flawlessly sine I received it, so it may be no big deal.
Maybe T-bone can comment on caps etc, but remember the P3 was the best table pioneer could make, so it is way over engineered. |
Sonofjim:
I actually think the TT on Hifido is a P3 plinth with P3a arm.. you can read on the vintageknob about the differences between the two, which are marginal btw..
Pioneer has its own servicecenter in Japan which still services all their highend units, like the P3, C3, M3, M4, M5, F3, C5, C7, M7, M8 etc. etc. etc. Any P3 should be serviced by this center before it's shipped to anywhere outside Japan, it's worth every penny!
Jaspert: May I ask: does it come with both tonearms? If not: these arms are being offered for sale every now and then on Yahoo.. |
I saw the one on hifido as well. It's listed as a P3a but the front and back plate just say P3 unlike the picture of the other sold one which says P3a both places. Not that it makes much difference. They're close to the same and either way it's a great machine. Not sure the rubber mat is a huge deal. I think T_bone uses a cu-180 on his anyway.
Where do these P3s get checked out/rebuilt typically? I assume at their age they need some checkup, maintanance, and possibly cap/diode changes.
I'd be interested in hearing how the transaction with hifido goes. They seem like a good source for these. |
Jaspert:
It's the P3a with the minor blemish on the base-foot? It looks quite allright, bigger issue to me should be the fact that the rubber mat is missing, but shurely you should be able to find a suitable replacement..
I was offered that one as well, since I was on the waiting list at hifido for a P3(a).. Since I just got one from Yahoo I passed.
Congratulations again with this great piece of engineering. |
Willem,
I'm getting mine from hifido, a known quantity/company to me for peace of mine eventhough it's not in as good a cosmetic shape as the one on Yahoo Japan. I reckon i can fix up the minor cosmetic fault with the help of furniture maker friend. I will update when i get it later. |
Unfortanetly I cant comment on any of the other high-end turntables bespoken here above.. the P3 is the only one I have/heard.
Today I have been playing around with the setup of the P3: I fitted the Pioneer PC-1000II cartridge onto the straight tonearm, tracking force at 1,2grams and damping at two (on the lower end, manual advices from 2-4 with straight arm and PC-1000II cart) I was amazed by the sound quality: Listened to some records and was absolutely suprised that this old cart could give such a great soundquality: voices are very lively, piano sounds fluid.. that is always a good indicator for me..
This cart is unfortanetly very, very hard to find, but I is certainly worth the search!
Funny thing is; I have the original brochure for the P3, and on the pictures in the brochure, it's shown with the PC-1000II cart as well! |
I think a mk3 done right is hard to beat but also costly. What's intriguing about these TT systems such as the P3, DP 100 and L-07D is the level of refinement for the dollar. You get a top notch motor and control system, a plinth with isolation, and a tonearm system all in one package. This is what makes the P3(and L-07D) so remarkable IMHO. |
No apologies necessary. My wife and son merely told me quietly that it was crazy to have 5 turntables (this was before I bought the latest L07D), and they've mercifully let it go at that. My SP10 Mk2A is running right next to my L07D. The Mk2A was given the soup to nuts restoration by Bill Thalmann (the same guy who probably worked on your tables, Sonofjim, via Albert's auspices). The L07D was done by Howard of the L07D Lovers. It's difficult to make a fair comparison of the tables alone, because of the integral plinth and tonearm on the L07D. The Mk2A is in a slate plinth, and I've used various tonearms. Anyway, the L07D has my vote without a doubt. For whatever reason, it's at a higher level.
I am going to mount my Triplanar in the secondary tonearm mount position on the L07D, to get a bead on the L07D tonearm, which some have criticized but which I think must be excellent. If there is anything to criticize with the L07D, I would point to the wiring between the cartridge and the phono stage; too many physical contacts. I plan to address that issue too. We'll see what the more than 2 times more costly MK3 can do next to the L07D. |
Lewm et all,
I must appolagize for the apparent misleading nature of my prior post. My laundry list of tables wasn't a list of tables I own. It was merely a list of those that intrigue/tempt me. I currently own a mk2 and a mk3, both rebuilt and mounted in Albert Porter's new double arm panzerholtz based plinths. I appear to be in the process of obtaining another mk3 and will likely sell the mk2 and it's original wenge plinth(The combiantion that led to the sale of Albert's Walker).
I potentially have room for a third table and love DDs. The P3 or the Denon DP 100 top my list for that spot(my wife would die if she knew I were even contemplating that at this point). The L-07D looks like a real winner and would have to be considered one of the biggest bargains of the group along with the mk2 which is nearly impossible to beat at anywhere near the price it goes for. |
Downunder,
The Kenwood is really understated and cool looking, IMO. If you see one in the flesh, you will know what I mean. The plinth is an integral part of the design and beautifully thought out with constrained layer damping, etc. IMO, each of the top line dd tables has a strong point that the others don't have; for the Kenwook, it is the plinth and the integration of the tonearm into the mix. Plus, the motor (coreless and slotless) and motor controller are unique.
Yes, I cut the TI Shield in the shape of an LP, punched a hole in the center and placed it between the platter and the platter "sheet" on the Kenwood, which is essentially a 5-lb platter mat made of stainless steel. On any table you could put it between the platter and whatever mat. I am not at all sure that other DD tables even need it. There was some scuttlebutt that it helps an SP10 MkII. Mk 3 should not need it because the platter is made of brass, essentially, with a high copper content. There is strong support for using a shield with the Kenwood on the L07D website. IME, the effect is at first subtle but then quite convincing in terms of improved clarity, wider soundstage, better inner detail. There is no "noise" per se with the Kenwood, even without the shield. The shield lowers the noise floor from low (no audible noise) to very low (wow factor). |
Lew
That is great news,
but remember its not a contest,(we can leave that to the current tables) - but rather a celebration of 30+ year old tables that can literally compete with the best of the current production.
Personally the industrial look of the Kenwood leaves me cold - but I am sure it sounds great.
I am not sure the P3 needs any RF shield - it is silent as is, but I'll try anything once.
Can you give us a link for the RF/EMI shield - I assume you just cut it into circle and place on the platter? how thick is it? Do you put it between the platter and rubber mat??
me, I am very tempted to get a Garrard 401 so I can hear the "idler" sound.
cheers |
Dear Sonofjim, Becoming a turntable collector is my biggest fear. Actually, you are ahead of me, and Travis puts us both in the shade, I am pleased to be able to say. I "only" have the Mk3 and the two L07Ds among the top rank ones. Of course, I also have the slate/PTP3/Lenco, a DP80, and an SP10 Mk2A, for a total of 6. I swear to myself that two of these, maybe 3 of them, have got to go. Actually, the second L07D was an auction on eBay, and I picked it up yesterday in Long Island, NY. It's quite mint-y. So, not the one from Germany.
I am in the process of constructing a very elaborate partially slate plinth for the Mk3, which is why it is not up and running. If you have not had your L07D tuned up by Howard of "L07D Lovers", you really ought to consider it. Mine is preternaturally silent since he did the work, and throws the widest deepest soundstage I have ever heard from a tt. Get the shield as well. |
Lewm,
Another L07D? This must be a great table to buy a second, the one from Germany I assume. I have more than I can deal with even now but these classic direct drives are getting the best of me. L-07D, sp-10 mk3, P3, DP 100m, PS-X9. I'm in danger of becoming a TT collector as it seems you and T_bone already are. Oh well, you could own them all for less than the cost of some modern sota tables. |
OK you guys. As T_bone knows, I just bought my second L07D yesterday. I know that the P3 was rated better in the famous 1980 "shoot-out", but that was the opinion of two other guys. Plus they did not use an RF/EMI shield between the platter and the LP, whichh is recommended especially for the L07D. Believe me, it makes a difference. You might also want to try it with the P3. I used TI Shield from M Percy. This is a material developed by Texas Instruments that was not even available back then. |
Jaspert:
Congrats on getting the P3! you will never regret it. was it from Yahoo? Let us know how you like it. Did it came with both the straigt and the S-shape tonearm?
Results on the A\B testing as soon as i get my 2'nd M3 back from some minor repair. I'm quite curious myself as well about the audible differences |
Willem,
2 sets of C3/M3 you say!! You are a true Exclusive fan.
Thanks for reporting your impression of the C3.I like the vintage cool look and I would be interested to hear of your AB result later.
And I know P3 is impossible to get outside of Japan. I just sealed a deal to get one today. Looking forward to getting it in the near future.
T-Bone,
Thanks for the advice on that P3 i'd received indirectly via Downunder.;) |
T_bone:
My initial plan was to get the tuner rebuild for Euro bandwidth.. I got the Japanese servicemanual etc. And thought I found a tech who could do it, but after studying the servicemanual he told me he is afraid he can't get it right, he finds the APC circuit on the F3 to difficult, he asked me to find the servicemanual for the same tuner but than with western bandwidth, however.. the F3 is japan only.. The closest thing it could come up with, is the F26 tuner, however I can't seem to find any servicedocs on that one.
So, for now I have find another solution: I use a bandwidth expander (the Merlin, can be found on that auction site) which is build for in-car use. I did a small conversion, so I could power it with a 12v adapter.. and cutted of the original connectors. It works like a charm! the sound output is very clean and crispy, no distortion whatsoever.. Ofcourse there is still the issue of the dialscale, but I can live with that for now..
My plan to get it rebuild still stands.. but I'm not sure if I will ever be able to get it done, it all depends on the availability of the right person and docs. Changing the dialscale shouldnt be to hard: I just have to get someone to cut me a glass plate in the right size, and then (after measurement etc apply the print.
There is a guy in the States who has some expierence with rebuilding Accuphase T-102's ans Sansui TU-9900 and TU-X1's.. He can do it to your Kenwood as well, I'm shure about that, but it will be pricey... |
Jw,
How did you solve your tuner band issue? If a tech can do that (and you can find a different number band for the tuner needle window), I would go out and find a Kenwood tuner. They can be found from time to time, but I just figured I could never get it to work in the right band...
Downunder,
When I move to a place with more than 100V, I will buy a big ugly thing and put it into a wooden box. |
Aoliviero
I use this Kashimura transformer in the link. It is good for 300 watts for 120volts and 200 watts for 240 volts. This is the largest power rating stepdown until you get to those big heavy ugly step downs.
I use one each for my P3 and P10. Completely silent and has worked perfectly.
http://www.joynetmall.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=332&products_id=3008&osCsid=c339d82c9a46c8babf247565c3a40480
T-Bone, are you saying if I buy one of those big heavy ugly transformers (see link) and maybe noisy my P3 will sound even better :-) ??
http://www.joynetmall.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=332&products_id=3540&osCsid=c339d82c9a46c8babf247565c3a40480 |
I had a huge stepdown transformer build to power both my exclusive P3 and F3, which are both Japanese domestic 100 volts units.. the F3 tuner is a story on itself, since it also has a bandwidh of 76 to 90 mhz, instead of 88 to 108.. However: everything can be solved!
T_bone: interesting info about the transformer and the peak power handling.. I never really thought of that.. |
The P3 is 100V 50/60Hz. It needs a stepdown transformer outside of Japan - preferably a larger one (one which can handle 300W or so). The transformer inside is supposed to be quite a bit larger than most turntables' transformers, according to the repairguy "the transformer is built for a 20W Class A amp". The back panel only says the draw is 15W, but he also has said to me that the peak power handling is quite large - lots of overhead. Because of that I would suggest more overhead in the transformer than you'd normally use with something which says 15W. YMMV...
Maybe Mr. Downunder can opine... |
Can these be used with USA voltage/frequency?
Andrew |
Hi Jaspert,
I actually bought the P3 in Japan and got it shipped... Finding it outside of Japan is next to impossible.
I like the C3 alot: the onboard phono stage sound very nice to me; quite neutral, but with a bit warmth in it.. just enough.. I actually have two sets of C3/M3; one set has seen a full revision/upgrade, while the other set is fully original, I want to do some a-b testing in the nearby future.
T-Bone:
Thanks! I will try some different settings with the damping etc.. I might give it a try with the Pioneer PC-1000II and PC-70mc cart as well..
Regards,
Willem |
Yes, 2-4 is the range on the damping knob on the top of the tonearm which the manual recommends for the S-armpipe when using 'low-compliance' carts. Personally, I tend to set it at the low side of what the manual recommends, but it is definitely worth experimenting - it will change the sound more than you expect...
FWIW, I assume your AT 150MLX is 'low' because of the specs shown on vinyl engine (which I had recently looked at). I have not used one of those carts on one of my tables. |
Willem,
Congratulation on completing your Exclusive total system.
The P3 is not easy to track down outside of Japan.
How do you find the C3 preamp,especially the onboard MM phono stage?
Is it warm or euphonic sounding or neutral? |
T Bone,
Thanks for the reply.
Forgive me with being so ignorant: But I suppose you are talking about the damping when you say "2-4 using the S-armpipe"??
And Downunder:
Yes, I think I will indeed this TT for many more years. Especially since it was the last item to complete my eXclusive setup: I already had the C3, M3, F3 and 3401's to go with it.. I love the complete setup!
Regards,
Willem |
Congrats Jwabrie
The damping has a big bearing on the overall sound, so like T-bone said, experiment after you become familar with the sound.
IMO the Exclusive P3 is as good as anything out there. I am sure you will enjoy it for many years. |
Jwfabrie,
Good news - sounds like you're on track.
You might want to experiment further with the damping. I would have figured your AT-150MLX to be on the "low" end of compliance.
According to the P3 manual (p15, bottom right), in general, low compliance carts should be set at 3-5 using the straight armpipe, and 2-4 using the S-armpipe. High-compliance carts should be set at 2-4 on the straight armpipe and 1-3 on the S-armpipe. |
Hi there, well I found it all out:
I was wrong in my first mail: I ment to note the dial on the right side: this is for adjusting the tracking force.. Now I got it all adjusted in the right way.
I have the AT-150mlx cart on it with a tracking force of 1,5 grams, and damping is on 1: It sounds wonderfull, I have to go through my whole recordcollection again!, I hears stuff which was never there before.. the detail and steadiness of the sound is amazing, furthermore the soundstage is very holographic, not like anything I heard/had before.. To give you an idea; my daily TT before the P3 was a (Pioneer) PLC-590 with PA-5000 arm.
I will certainly never regret getting the P3, it looks wonderfull, and the sound improvement is amazing!
Regards,
Willem |
Willem,
The adjustment knob on the left (assuming you are looking at the table with the
arm on the right of the platter), is the anti-skate knob.
By the way, please tell us how you like it. |
Hello Downunder,
Just like you I have been able to pick up the elusive P3.. I just got it about three days ago. I need some help adjusting it in the right way, since I can't make up anything out of the manual.. Can you tell me what the adjustment knob on the left does? For as far as I know: the top one is damping, and the one on the right is for tracking force.. now still to find out what the one on the left does..
I have it paired with a AT-150mlx cart, since I use a eXclusive P3 as preamp, I wanted to find a decent MM cart.
Regards,
Willem |
When the Mk3 is finally ready for audition, I will replace the Mk2 with the Mk3 on the same shelf with the same tonearm/cartridge. Then we will see. Those who have owned both tell me the difference in sound is not "amazing". Over on another thread, Dertonearm tells me that to be in the highest echelon of tt excellence, one must have at least a 30-lb platter, regardless of the drive system. This of course lets any dd table that I know of out of the discussion. (Possibly the megamegabuck Rockport fulfills this criterion.) I am not saying I agree with him or even that I know enough to have an opinion. |
thnx Jasper, you still kill me on idler tables thou:-)
Lewm
If you read the vintage knob link at the beginning, it has been updated to include the diffences between the P3 & p3a - they only real audible changes according to the Pioneer techs was a change to the arm wand & phono cable.
I will be very interested in your take of SP10Mk2 v Mk3. |
Downunder, What you say seems to be true. In ca 1980 the standard for measuring S/N ratio changed, to give everyone bigger numbers to brag on. I think then Exclusive re-defined the P3 to P3a with maybe some minor changes, if any changes at all. No one seems to know for sure just what changes would have been made at that time.
Personally, I wonder whether one CAN have too many great turntables, and I feel that I am testing the hypothesis. |
You can't have too many great turntables. ;)
Your P3 is a beaut. |
Hi Lewn, Siniyl - thanks
Yes I do have a P10 as well, however I had the opportunity to get the P3 and could not pass it up.
I am not that concerned about P3 or p3a as they are almost the same. s/n ratio is the same. Only difference was in 1980 was the way Japanese measure changed giving all the tables a boost in the measured s/n ratio specs |
Kenwood L-07D and Exclusive P-3(a) are the best integrated turntable systems from big Japanese companies. I will love to hear another owner comparison. I own L-07D and very happy with it. |
Congrats, Downunder. I thought you had settled on, or settled for, a P10. I've now got a Kenwood L07D and an SP10 Mk3, neither of which are yet in service. But can a P3 be far behind? |
