I did get my Delos back from Lyra after the adjustment as suggested by Jonathan. It's now riding with good clearance and still sounds good. Thanks. |
>>06-26-10: Actusreus
The Delos must be in very high demand as I've been waiting for mine for about a month..... Any dealers here who could shed some light on the issue?
Most Lyra cartridges must be ordered in advance i.e. there is no existing stock to "pull from" in most cases.
I ordered my current supply of Delos and Kleos a few months ago.
Dealer disclaimer |
Hi Actusreus:
Lyra is a small manufacturer, and while we use a lot of modern techniques like NC machining and EDM machining to fabricate our components, all of our cartridges are assembled, adjusted and voiced by hand. That includes the Delos.
From our earliest days as a manufacturer, we decided that all of our cartridges should be built by hand, and that before being shipped, each and every cartridge should be listened to and sonically verified to be up to our standards of quality. Our experience has also been that the very same components can result in rather different sound, depending on who the builder is.
For these reasons, we only employ one cartridge builder. Yoshinori Mishima, and his assistant/apprentice, Akiko Ishiyama. The Dorian, Delos and Kleos models are built partly by Akiko, with Mishima in charge of the final stages of assembly and all adjustments, voicing and measurements. All of our other cartridges are made by Mishima only.
The end result is that our averaged monthly production capacity caps out at about 100 cartridges (different cartridge models require different amounts of time and work). The 100 number includes all cartridges that we do - cartridge rebuilds/repairs and new cartridges for Lyra, also work for our OEM clients. Neither Mishima nor myself intend to exceed 100 cartridges per month, because doing so would force the work to be rushed, and standards of quality would suffer.
Delos's are being made at the rate of about 50 units per month, and while there are no manufacturing problems, demand has consistently and steadily outpaced this number. Our order books suggest that we have now slipped to about 60~75 Delos' behind where our distributors, dealers, and customers would like for us to be; representing about 1.5 months production. I acknowledge that this isn't a happy state of affairs, but given our 100-cartridge production capacity ceiling, in order to deliver more Delos' per month, we would need to drop or severely reduce production of other cartridges, which is an even less palatable alternative.
I apologize for this situation, but as long as all of our cartridges remain hand-built by one man and his assistant, and to the standards of quality that we consider acceptable, there is no quick solution. The only sensible thing for us to do is to keep focused on our work, and deliver as many cartridges as we can without compromising on build or sonic quality.
We hope that our customers will understand and be patient, and we also hope that, when they listen to the Delos (or Kleos), it will make them feel that it was well worth the wait.
kind regards, jonathan carr |
Jcarr - What is the plan if something happens to Mishima and he is unable to build anymore cartridges? Does Lyra go belly-up?? I would think that a few more people would be trained to carry on the work of one man. |
Jon,
Thank you very much for your thorough and candid response to my post. I absolutely agree with you; I'd rather wait for the cartridge longer than see Lyra trade quality for numbers. It's very reassuring to know that Lyra continues to make quality and standards its top priorities. |
What is the plan if something happens to Mishima and he is unable to build anymore cartridges? Buy now or cry later :-) |
The Delos finally arrived and has been mounted on the VPI Classic, which was also backordered for over 2 months. Wow, a beautiful looking cartridge made with the highest attention to detail. The built is simply immaculate. The combo sounds great right out of the box; considering the cart and table are not broken in yet, I'm very impressed with both. Well worth the wait. |
Actusreus...this is the combo I am considering. Great to hear you are liking what you are hearing. Would very much appreciate your feedback with a little bit more detail in terms of what you are hearing from this combo once you have logged in some hours on both the table and the cart. Also, did you get any additional tweaks with the Classic (periphery ring, HRX clamp, Valhalla wiring, wtc...)? Thx |
Cmalak...Of course, no problem. I'd be happy to provide feedback. I'm also currently using a phono preamp loaner as my Camelot Tech Lancelot is back with the manufacturer to customize it a little more. So the system is not complete yet.
As far as additional tweaks, I did get the Valhalla wiring, which looks spectacular with the black oak finish and certainly contributes to the detail and transparency of the sound. I'm thinking of adding the clamp or the SDS possibly in the future.
Perhaps remind me in a little while should I forget to come back to this thread to provide a report. |
Will do. Thanks again and congrats on the new analog setup. |
Hi Jonathan,
Thanks for all the information regarding the Delos.
Just a question- how well do you think the Delos would work with the 47 Labs PhonoCube? It is a current amplifier and currently I am using it with my Dyna 17D3..It sounds great, but the gain is a little on the low side. The dyna has a 32Ohm internal impedance while the Delos is at 8.2, so I am thinking that it will work quite well...
Any thoughts?
Regards,
byron |
Hi Smholl:
>What is the plan if something happens to Mishima and he is unable to build anymore cartridges? Does Lyra go belly-up?? I would think that a few more people would be trained to carry on the work of one man.<
That's a key reason why we brought Akiko Ishiyama into the picture. In the past we've tried to nurture a number of different apprentices, but after some time Mishima found cause to reject them. Mishima is very critical and picky about who he feels is worth working with (I'm not too different, so I usually understand his position). The exception has been Akiko.
She began by building MM cartridges (which are much easier to build than MCs) around the year 2000, and spent a few years honing her basic technique. After observing her build quality and consistency with MMs, I felt that it was worthwhile to get her working on MCs, under Mishima's tutelage. She started by working on the most basic stages of assembly for the Dorian*, and her steady improvement encouraged myself and Mishima to teach her more, and have her do increasingly difficult stages of assembly. She's now been involved with cartridge-building for about 10 years, perhaps 7 years of which have been with MCs, and her growth has been reassuring. She's now involved with the new Kleos, the Delos, and the Dorian. Maybe in another 5-10 years, she will become capable enough to entrust her with a complete MC cartridge.
But apprentices or no apprentices, our brand policy is that each and every piece that we make must be listened to and found worthy before it can be shipped (that's true of our amplification products as well as cartridges). That will always define the upper limit of our production capacity.
hth, jonathan carr
* Originally I planned for the Dorian to be assembled completely by an outside cartridge manufacturer (that has produced many MC and MM cartridges, mostly for OEM clients but with some models bearing its own brand). When we received the first batch of 50 completed cartridges, we tested them but found so many problems and performance irregularities that there was no point in continuing to do business with this manufacturer. Also, the chemicals and adhesives that they had used in their assembly process made it impossible for the defective cartridges to be reworked, and this production run became a total loss. I then changed plans to bring Akiko in as an apprentice, and as she learned more to have her gradually assume more of the work. |
Jonathan - Thanks much for your detailed explanation of Lyra's current and future cartridge build plans. Lyra's operaton is in such contrast to a much larger operation, such as Ortofon.
I will be looking at the Dorian soon. |
Hi Byron:
Sorry for making you wait for a reply. To give you the short answer first, the Delos should work with the PhonoCube just fine. The PhonoCube uses what is called "current-mode" topology, which is a very similar configuration to the I/V stage in many DACs. I believe that the Dynavector P-75 is also of this type. This kind of circuit has three characteristics worth keeping in mind.
1. The circuit varies in gain depending on the impedance of the cartridge coils. There is a main feedback resistor inside the circuit, and the gain is the ratio of this resistor to the cartridge resistance. The lower the cartridge resistance, the greater the gain, so the PhonoCube will have higher amplification with the 8.2-ohm Delos than the 38-ohm 17D3. Note that the Delos also has two times the output level of the 17D3, so altogether the PhonoCube will produce significantly higher listening levels with the Delos than the 17D3.
2. The phono amp's signal input is the summing node of the feedback system, and this feedback reduces the input impedance to effectively 0 ohms (except for ultra-high frequencies, where there may not be enough gain to sustain feedback). As a result, the PhonoCube's circuit presents a heavier-than-normal load for the phono cartridge, and this increased level of electrical damping may result in a somewhat different sound than what you'd get with the same cartridge if it were paired with a normal voltage-mode circuit (with higher input impedance).
3. This type of circuit inverts phase, so it may be worthwhile to try swapping the plus and minus leads that connect the cartridge to the tonearm/headshell.
cheers, jonathan |
What is the significance of the output voltage level of a give cartridge with regard to audio fidelity? For example, the Lyra Delos cartridge puts out 0.6mV. Some MC cartridges that I have seen put out less than half that voltage level. The apparent benefit would seem to be that the higher output level needs less gain in the phono stage, which likely means higher S/N ratios as opposed to lower output MC cartridges where you would need more gain in the phono stage. I guess my question is, are there disadvantages of the higher output voltage level relative to cartridges that output lower voltage levels?
I appreciate that the ultimate determination of whether one cartridge sounds better than another can only be determined by listening (which has it's own limitations because it can often be difficult to due an apples-to-apples comparison under the same conditions), but I am trying to get a sense as to what is the consideration in determining what output voltage a given cartridge will be designed to produce.
On a related topic, I read the instructions that come with the Lyra Delos that specify suggested load impedance values for use at the phono stage. My question is how did you determine those impedance ranges? By SPICE analysis, or some other method? |
Jonathan,
Thanks for your thoughts and input. I received my Delos the other day and installed it on my RB300 last night.
All I can say so far is, wow, great job!
Very dynamic and balanced, much more than previous cartridges such as the Argo (which I did like, but found could be a little strident at times).
I am really looking forward to the next 50 hours or so.
Byron |
Paperw8, before we speak of output levels, we need to distinguish what kind of core the coils are wound onto. Assuming the same level of magnetic field strength (flux), non-permeable cores are more inefficient at converting the physical movement of the stylus into electrical output, but what output they produce is quite linear. Permeable cores still aren't what I'd call efficient, nonetheless they result in much higher output for a given amount of stylus movement, but the permeable core adds noise, distortion and reduces resolution.
OTOH, distortion in a cartridge is caused by physical issues (such as tracking resolution) as well as magnetic, and the better the physical aspects (styli with longer and narrower contact patch, more linear dampers, less body resonances, more complete energy evacuation from the cartridge structure), the more noticeable magnetic and core issues will be. The reverse is also true, if the stylus is conical (spherical) and the damper is a simple one-way design, distortion due to magnetic and core issues will be swamped and therefore much less noticeable.
The next thing that needs to be stated is that distortion or noise in analog playback is caused not only by the cartridge, but also the phono stage and signal cabling. Tonearms likewise cause tracking and energy evacuation distortions, but we will leave them outside of the current discussion (as things would get too complex). In particular, the contribution of the phono stage is not small. Areas that phono stages struggle with include noise and gain (if noise and gain are insufficient, the designer may need to add one complete gain stage or an input transformer), and immunity to high-frequency energy (which are triggered frequently, by ticks and pops, mistracking, electrical loading, and RF issues), which can cause inharmonic distortion, which is particularly nasty-sounding. If the phono stage has a lower level of performance, it is usually better to design the phono cartridge for higher output levels, even if it means so much coil inductance that the electrical phase is seriously messed up (the worst in this respect being MMs).
If the phono stage is state-of-the-art, the cartridge designer can afford to design a lower-impedance, low-inductance, low-output cartridge. The extreme case here would be a ribbon MC (single-turn coil), but to my knowledge, no phono stage has ever been built which could do justice to such a cartridge, which shows you how challenging the task can be.
As far as the cartridge is concerned, lower output is more ideal. Lower output means less metal in the coil windings (copper has a specific gravity of 8-9, which is greater than iron!) for lower moving mass and reduced tracking distortion. Lower output also means fewer coil winding layers, which enables the coils to be of cleaner shape and will improve crosstalk, phase response, and channel matching (cleaner-made coils also look much better).
The majority of cartridges these days have permeable-core coils (well-known exceptions being Benz Micro's ruby core, and the carbon cores used in some of Ortofon's designs). Compared to permeable-core cartridges with their core-induced distortions, air-core cartridges will need more coil windings to achieve similar output levels, and the extra copper may result in more moving mass than if a permeable core had been used, and the increased number of coil layers will impair the geometric shape of the coils. Comparisons between the two approaches tend not to be straightforward.
Feedback from Lyra's markets (we make only permeable-core cartridges) has been that to go below 0.5mV (5cm/sec) means that many phono stages will be less than happy. The user may hear problems like noise, grain, insufficient bass response, or in less problematic situations, they may simply not hear the improvement in resolution that the lower-output cartridge should be giving them.
As a cartridge manufacturer, our problem is that the user may not be happy with the sound, but in most cases they will blame it on the cartridge rather than the phono stage or that they have excessive electrical contact points in the signal cabling system (which seems to work OK with MMs, MIs and high-output MCs), but will impair the sound of low-output MCs. Since no manufacturer likes to hear that users are unhappy, we've shifted our cartridges away from where they were some years ago (0.22-25mV, single-layer coils) to our present level (0.5mV, double-layer coils, although the Dorian and Delos use three-layer coils to generate 0.6mV). We are willing to make single-layer coil versions of our cartridges upon customer requests (especially the lower-volume, more expensive models), and if the customer's phono stage is up to the task, our experience has been that everyone is happy.
Does this answer your question adequately? It's a complex topic, so please feel free to ask more questions if some things remain unclear.
cheers, jonathan |
What arms have you guys installed this cart in ?
Will something is the 14g effective mass work like the Phantom ?
In terms of cart loading, how many ohms are you guys loading it with ?
thanks!! |
Thanks you Jonathan. That was enlightening. |
To date I've mounted Delos on Triplanar, Dynavector 507 Mk.II, SME M2-12R, and Hadcock 242.
Depending on phono stage, Pass XP-15, Steelhead, Esoteric E-03, it seems to perform best between 250 and 400 ohms.
YMMV
Dealer disclaimer |
Paperw8, regarding my detailed investigations into load impedance values, the starting point was my basic knowledge of electrical design (that when inductive generators are involved, any capacitance present will influence the results), the second stage was SPICE analysis, and the third stage involved using signal generators and verifying how different load networks affected the electrical response curves, including above 100kHz.
I generated one set of data for the Delos, and another for the Kleos, and the instruction manual for each cartridge includes this information. The two sets of numbers are similar, but not the same. Although the topology of the electrical model is the same for both cartridges, the electrical values of the signal coils are different, and therefore the two should be treated as individual cases.
The overall take-home message is that the optimal loading changes, depending on how much capacitance there is between cartridge and phono stage. The less capacitance there is, and/or the better your phono stage is at handling ultrasonic energy (above 100kHz), the lighter the electrical load can be. I believe that this is true not only for all of the Lyra cartridges, but most other low-impedance low-output MC cartridges as well.
Cartridges with comparatively higher output levels likely have more inductance, and this means that the frequency range of all electrical effects will come down. The nature of the interaction and reactance between coil inductance and cable/phono stage capacitance is the same as with low-output low-impedance MCs, but where the frequencies involved are in the high-ultrasonic range with low-impedance MCs, the frequencies involved will get closer and closer to the audible range as the coil inductance increases. In either case, the phase response will start shifting at a much lower frequency than the frequency response (1-to-10 ratio as a general rule of thumb), so if you feel that phase response is worth worrying about, any reactive anomalies in the frequency response should be kept above at least 200kHz. This is a strong argument for the basic superiority of low-inductance low-output cartridges - assuming that the phono stage is up to the job.
BTW, I'd like to mention that the Delos has been receiving favorable reviews in the audiophile press. Micheal Fremer gave the Delos a positive review in the 2010 August issue of Stereophile, and there is supposedly a positive writeup of the Delos in The Abso!ute Sound (although I've not read the article).
The 2010-08 (August) issue of the German audio magazine Stereoplay has a 5-way cartridge shootout between Ortofon's Cadenza Red, Ortofon Cadenza Blue, Benz-Micro Wood SL, Kuzma KC2 (a ZYX OEM), and Lyra Delos. The Delos was picked as the best-sounding cartridge in this particular comparison, and was the only cartridge to earn the "Stereoplay Highlight" plaudit. The Stereoplay review is particularly interesting in that it offers a much more comprehensive set of measurements and tests (of all cartridges involved) than any article that I have seen in the English-speaking audio press. Well worth reading if you have an interest in any of the cartridges mentioned.
cheers, jonathan |
Nolitan:
Yes, I've used the Delos with Phantom IIs (on a variety of turntables). No problems, and the sound quality has been good.
Loading is as I have stated previously - it depends on how much capacitance there is between the Delos and your phono stage, and also on how resistant your phono stage is to high-frequency overload (from about 100kHz - 7MHz). But this is nothing unique to the Delos.
One comment based on experience with the Phantom - changing the phono cable to a low-capacitance type (40pF for 1.2 meter length including connectors) improved the sound quality quite noticeably by itself, and this also enabled the loading at the phono stage to be reduced, which further improved sound quality.
hth, jonathan carr |
Thanks Jcarr.... I hope to get my cart soon. |
I purchased Delos last week from needledoctor. I am using clearaudio Maestro with great satisfactions, but since I just upgrade my phono stage to Aesthetix Rhea, I think I should try MC cartridge as well.
My question is what the input loading that I should set for my Rhea when I use Delos? From Delos's specification the loading range is rather big (from 91 ohms to 47K ohms). I understand Jcarr's explanation of loading with respect to the phono stage and cable, but I have difficult to find out the cable loading and phono stage loading.
My TT is Thorens 124MKii, the headshell I am going to use is Yamamoto HS-1AS on SME3009. The tonearm cable is the original RCA to my phono stage. If anyone has suggestions to derive input loading of my phono stage, I will be appreciated. |
Hi Shyander:
My experience is that tonearm cables tend to be around 100pF per meter, while those specified as "low-capacitance" may be around 50pF per meter.
If your phono cable is 1.2 - 1.5m (common lengths) and isn't spelled out as being low-capacitance, I'd suggest that a "safe" value is 360-330 ohms, but you could go up to 390 or 410 if you want more dynamics and sparkle. If your system tends towards brightness, or you desire a sound which is closer to a "Row M" seat at a concert hall rather than "Row A", you could use heavier loading (smaller resistance values).
I believe that the SME3009 has a detachable tonearm cable, and if so you could use a capacitance meter to check the capacitance value (or perhaps ask a TV or electronics repair shop to measure for you).
But don't worry overly much about the numerical value of the load. There is no point is using a loading value that is numerically correct if the resulting sound makes you want to turn off your system.
I'd suggest that you eventually acquire some low-capacitance cable and then revisit your loading values. Chances are that you will be able to use less loading, which should give you more dynamic range, wider timbral range, and better resolution.
hth, jonathan |
Hi Jcarr:
I got my Delos last week and quickly put it on my system. The installation was so easy and effortless. The initial sound quality is elegant and detail which is the advantage of MC cartridge. I have two questions that I need from you:
1. I put the tracking force as 1.75grams, but the clearance between the cartridge and vinyl is so small that I feel the Delos white cloth is almost touch the record. Is that normal?
2. My phono stage has de-magnetiser feature, should I use it with Lyra MC cartridge?
Thanks. |
i like the delos as well! great cart even out of the box. |
Hi Shyander:
Apologies for the delay in replying.
1. If your tracking force gauge is showing an accurate 1.75 grams and the white paper at the bottom of the Delos is nearly touching the LP, the suspension probably should be tightened up a bit.
If you think there may be a problem, put the Delos back into its box, put in a label that says "low rider", and give it back to your dealer so that they can return it to us. We will be happy to take a look at the Delos and take care of any problem. Most likely it is only an adjustment issue that won't require much time to correct.
2. As long as the "de-magnetiser" circuit is working properly, feel free to use it with the Delos (or any other Lyra MC cartridge). Since we don't use Alnico magnets (which are much less capable of resisting demagnetization than samarimum-cobalt or neodymium), there should be no problem when using either passive or active "de-magnetising".
Quotes because IMO "de-magnetiser" gives an erroneous impression of what these types of circuits actually do to a cartridge.
BTW, as part of a multi-cartridge review, Wayne Garcia recently reviewed the Delos in the pages of The Abso!ute Sound. IMO he wrote a fair, even-handed review which accurately sums up the Delos' abilities (including his last sentance, which summarizes my goals for designing the Delos). You can read Wayne's review on-line, and the link is as follows (paste entire link into URL window):
http://www.avguide.com/review/benz-micro-slr-gullwing-denon-dl-103-lyra-delos-ortofon-mc-rondo-red-tas-206
best to all, jonathan |
I have a Delos in an ET II tonearm on a VPI TNT, installed it last April. Herron VTPH2 phono stage, muse signature 3 preamp, Marantz SMS 11 amp, Audio Artistry Vivaldi speakers. It took some time to get the Delos set up right, but now it sings. Very easy to listen too, no fatiguing at all. Plenty of detail and low level micro dynamics. Most decent LP's just bloom. I can't imagine a "hot stamper" sounding any better. Now that it's settled in, listening to records is more like listening to people play music, rather than just listening to music, a distinction I hope I'm conveying correctly. I've had Van Den Huls, a Helikon and Grados, and this baby is my favorite cartridge so far, by a large margin. |
i have a lyra delos installed on a triplanar tonearm with a whest ps.30rdt phono stage. it is a very nice sounding setup. one of the advantages of the 0.6mv output level from the lyra delos is that it allows me to use a gain level of 60dB, which provides more immunity to rfi than would be the case if i used higher gain levels (such as with lower output cartridges). from comments by jcarr, i got the impression that bass response should also be better with the higher output level. i can say that the bass response from my setup is comparable to that of a cd player.
i also like the price point for the lyra delos. cartridges are consummables in that you have to replace them after a few years of use: the more you use them, the sooner they have to be replaced. in my mind, the idea of spending $10,000 for a cartridge that i will likely have to replace in a few years is like lighting cigars with $100 bills. as far as i can observe, the lyra delos is a good sounding, and reasonably priced, cartridge. i would be inclined to replace my current cartridge with another. i have to admit, though, that i am curious about what a single-wound lyra delos cartridge would sound like... |
>>11-27-10: Paperw8
i can say that the bass response from my setup is comparable to that of a cd player.<<
Huh?
No cd player can approach the bottom end of a properly set-up vinyl front end.
>>cartridges are consummables in that you have to replace them after a few years of use<<
Not true.
Most stylii should go 4000 hours (or more) if aligned correctly. You will need to listen for 5 1/2 hours every day for 2 years in order to reach 4000 hours. Most people come nowhere near that. In fact, the majority of audiophiles trade up or sell their cartridge before it needs re-tipping.
>>the idea of spending $10,000 for a cartridge that i will likely have to replace in a few years is like lighting cigars with $100 bills<<
And you probably should not unless your system is uber-sophisticated. There is no rhyme or reason to install a $10K cartridge on anything but a reference level table/arm. You wouldn't buy racing tires for a Taurus right? |
Paperw8, I'm also starting to use a Delos into the Whest (although not the dual transformer version) on the 55db setting. I sympathise with the value-for-money argument that this design represents.
I must admit that I agonised over the best choice of VTA vs VTF with this cartridge given Jonathan's recommendations. My arm has VTA adjustment capability on-the-fly but, like many others, I'm disinclined to constantly mess around with it. So, I was initially thinking 150g record as a ref with VTF at 1.75g and allowing a slight deviation on 120g/180g. Since most of my records are 120g I finally decided it was better to use 120g as Ref and accept a slightly larger hit on 180g, still within the cartridge's operating range.
Ultimately, if this proves unsatisfactory I could organise the occasional 180g "month/week" :D :D, nesting all the 180's together in one session and adjust the VTA tower on a one-off basis :D
Of course all this is academic if it turns out it sounds better at 1.77g (!! :D)
Cheers.... |
11-28-10: Audiofeil
No cd player can approach the bottom end of a properly set-up vinyl front end.
that hasn't been my experience. |
11-28-10: Moonglum
Paperw8, I'm also starting to use a Delos into the Whest (although not the dual transformer version) on the 55db setting.
55dB will send a signal of about 1/3 volt to the preamplifier where 60dB sends a signal of about 0.6 volts to the preamplifier. the difference is that in the former case you will have to turn the volume control higher to achieve a given sound pressure level from your speakers. as far as i can tell, a lot of it is a matter of preference and matching signal amplitude levels with other sources. in my case, my preamplifier has an input sensitivity of 0.5 volt and i wanted to make the signal amplitude level from the phono stage comparable to that of my cd player. that said, from what i've observed, using the minimum phono stage gain value seems advantageous since you can compensate in the preamplifier, which works with a large signal than that coming from the cartridge. as to on-the-fly vta adjustment capability, i suppose the idea is that the tonearm makes the adjustment so gradually that it doesn't damage the cartridge, but i am still disinclined to use the capability. i don't do vta on a per-record basis either although a good vta can make a noticeable difference in sound reproduction. it can be a bit of a hassle because depending on how much you change the vta you might also have to readjust the vtf. i pretty much set the vtf in the middle of the range so that the tonearm stays stable on difficult-to-track records. |
>>11-28-10: Paperw8
that hasn't been my experience.<<
Fair enough.
You need more experience. |
It hasn't been my experience either. Twenty five years, at least a half dozen different turntable/tonearm combinations with at least a twenty different cartridges. Some dealer set up and some by me using various alignment tools. To my ear vinyl beats digital in some very important areas but not in bass authority, impact and weight. Heresy? Maybe, but I'm with Paperw8 on this one. |
25 years of experience makes you a young man dodgealum.
There's plenty of time remaining to find it.
Good luck to you and the weight. |
Paperw8 :
"55dB will send a signal of about 1/3 volt to the preamplifier where 60dB sends a signal of about 0.6 volts to the preamplifier."
Hi Paperw8...the Whest manual merely says "0.6mV-0.35mV = 55db setting", "0.4mV-0.25mV = 60db"(personally I would have written these numbers in reverse but never mind :o) Given that Lyra requests a "0.6mV or less" input, 55 chose itself. I hear what you're saying about low throughput. My concern was driving the phono stage into saturation. (Although designs like this tend to have plenty of headroom)
What is the Lyra anyway? About 450uV? Probably close enough to 60db to be inconsequential :o) |
11-28-10: Moonglum
Hi Paperw8...the Whest manual merely says "0.6mV-0.35mV = 55db setting", "0.4mV-0.25mV = 60db"(personally I would have written these numbers in reverse but never mind :o) Given that Lyra requests a "0.6mV or less" input, 55 chose itself. I hear what you're saying about low throughput. My concern was driving the phono stage into saturation.
55dB is a very workable setting with the lyra delos. i tried that setting and had no difficulty. for me it was just a matter of preference that i wanted to provide a signal that was at least equal to the input sensitivity of the preamplifier. but i think that jonathan can provide some useful observations on this point. driving the whest into saturation isn't a problem. i have used 65dB gain with the lyra delos without difficulty. i would expect the whest to be able to provide a signal output level of at least 2v. the problem that you can run into is that you send a really "hot" signal to the preamplifier. then the output volume can get pretty loud even when you have the volume at the 9 o'clock position. not only can that make it more difficult to finely control the volume level, but it would make the volume adjustment way out of line with other sources that you might send to the preamplifier. |
for anyone who has a triplanar tonearm, i measured the capacitance of the 1 meter rca cable that triplanar provides with the triplanar tonearm and got a capacitance value in the 70pf to 80pf range (taking into account the accuracy of my multimeter). the input of my phono preamplifier adds about 10pf to 15pf. so in my case the total capacitance (cable and phono stage input) is in the 80pf to 95pf range. so if you are using a triplanar tonearm with your lyra delos cartridge i would say that 100pf is a pretty good estimate for the total input capacitance value to use when you set your phono stage input load impedance according to the instructions that come with the cartridge. |
>>11-28-10: Paperw8
i would say that 100pf is a pretty good estimate for the total input capacitance value to use when you set your phono stage input load impedance<<
Actually due to the extremely-low self-inductance of a moving coil cartridge, capacitance is basically irrelevant.
This is the reason you seldom, if ever, see capacitance adjustments for moving coils on phono stages.
Please refer to my experience comments in previous post. |
100pf seems extraordinarily low for the RDT? My ps0.3r has a 220pF input C, while the 0.5m cable is assumed to be around 50pF Giving me a total of 270pF. By way of contrast a Trichord Diablo is way up there at 1.1nF(?) but as Audiofeil says it doesn't matter to MCs anyway. |
11-29-10: Moonglum
100pf seems extraordinarily low for the RDT? My ps0.3r has a 220pF input C, while the 0.5m cable is assumed to be around 50pF Giving me a total of 270pF. By way of contrast a Trichord Diablo is way up there at 1.1nF(?) but as Audiofeil says it doesn't matter to MCs anyway.
from where you are getting your data on input capacitance? my whest manual provides no information on input capacitance. an input capacitance of 220pf sounds a bit high even for a moving magnet section. at any rate, once you figure out the input capacitance that you intend to use, my previous comments about setting the phono stage input load impedance will make more sense if you read the instructions that come with the lyra delos cartridge. you will find that having an estimate for the input capacitance is relevant if you want to set the load impedance at the phono stage. speaking of the whest manual, i will point out that there is an error in the chart that shows the latest (post 1 jan 09) load settings. the figure in the manual indicates that DIP switch position 4 selects a 1k ohm resistor, when in reality it is a 1.6k ohm resistor. if you look at the values indicated on the actual circuit board, it too indicates that this switch position is 1.6k ohm - the circuit board is correct and the manual is incorrect. |
In my system, the only thing digital do better is noise.
Vinyl is better in every other aspect. The bass reproduction in analog chain is easily compromised: proper setup and acoustic feedback being most critical. |
11-29-10: Paperw8
"from where you are getting your data on input capacitance? my whest manual provides no information on input capacitance. an input capacitance of 220pf sounds a bit high even for a moving magnet section."
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James Henriot.
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"Speaking of the whest manual, i will point out that there is an error in the chart that shows the latest (post 1 jan 09) load settings. the figure in the manual indicates that DIP switch position 4 selects a 1k ohm resistor, when in reality it is a 1.6k ohm resistor. if you look at the values indicated on the actual circuit board, it too indicates that this switch position is 1.6k ohm - the circuit board is correct and the manual is incorrect."
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Useful info....
Cheers..................M. |
11-30-10: Moonglum
11-29-10: Paperw8
"from where you are getting your data on input capacitance? my whest manual provides no information on input capacitance. an input capacitance of 220pf sounds a bit high even for a moving magnet section."
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James Henriot.
i checked this out and got the sense that mr. henriot did not measure the capacitance across the +/- leads at the input rca connectors. but in any event, whatever capacitance value(s) you choose to use, the instructions that come with the lyra delos provide guidelines for how to set the input impedance at the phono stage. for what it's worth, if you tell the people at whest that you are using a lyra delos cartridge, they will typically configure the ps.30 for a load impedance value of 470 ohms. |
Thanks for that Paperw8.....I'm currently using a load of 220 with the PS0.3r and it sounds pretty good even though I'm still running in the cart, but you've intrigued me so I will try something approaching the 470 setting.
Best................M. |
12-03-10: Moonglum
Thanks for that Paperw8.....I'm currently using a load of 220 with the PS0.3r and it sounds pretty good even though I'm still running in the cart, but you've intrigued me so I will try something approaching the 470 setting.
you'll get better dynamics but i think that 470 ohms is a bit bright. i had previously been using an effective load impedance of about 363 ohms. i am currently using an effective load impedance of 455 about ohms but may go back to 363 ohms after a while. |
Paperw8
The input capacitance MUST be 220pf because I used to use an MM cartridge on my PS.30R. MM cartridges require capacitance as you know, that's why they are there. dropping the 220pf and you'll have a really crappy sound on MM. I know because I took out my 220pf from my older PS.20 loading plugs and the sound was like a cheap 1920's gramophone.
MC cartridges don't really need capacitance but resistor loading. There is a big debate out there about required capacitance for MC. I have a friend who is an avid DIYer and he increased the input capacitance of his homebrew stage from 200pf to 1nf in 5 steps while using an old Linn Troika. Nothing really happened. But changing the load from 100ohms to 1k ohms in 5 steps made a massive difference at every step.
Also if you check inside the Whest 30R you will see 2 polypropylene 220pf capacitors at the RCA connectors. I think you may be doing the wrong thing or just totally forgotten 4th grade science.
I sort of remember in school physics that measuring resistance in parallel with capacitance will give you the reactance or a reactance measurement but trying to measure correct capacitance with a resistor across it is pretty hard if not impossible.
How do you measure the capacitance of your tonearm cable??? You must have to load it with a fixed resistor, measure the reactance and do the math to get the capacitance value.
I have found that loading does affect dynamics and presentation but needs to be set for the system and room. There are no hard fast rules with loading as moving the whole system to another room may need a different lading system because of the room. |
just got an answer from James at whest regarding the capacitance value question and more. It seems that he has had quite a few emails regarding this subject.
I was right in thinking that without the 220pf the MM would sound wrong. As I thought, it's known anyway that the capacitance loading is to do with MM and not so important with MC. Varying capacitance on MM makes a very big difference in sound but not so with MC.
James says the most important aspect of design is 'information retrieval' and the only way around that is knowing what is 'coming in'.
I do get his reasoning and him likening basic knowledge of electronics to the basic knowledge of engine design. Many can understand getting 100hp from an engine but it takes a real understanding of all the component parts to get 500hp from the same block.
What I did not know was the input stage design of all the Whest phonostages except the small whestTWO are all designed for MC use. Meaning the impedances are geared towards low loading values - giving their lowest noise levels with low loads. The majority of phonostages out there are MM style with input - high resistance values/ impedances which is why many are noisier or sound poorer with MC loads. The fact that the Whest phonostages play MM is an aside as James says 'at this level people should be using MC'. |
