Are manufacturer AC cables good enough?

But we can do experiments showing gravity exists. I am not sure he said gravity can't  be explained perhaps it was we don't really know what gravity is? We can explain the affects of gravity but what it is made up of, gravitons? Who knows. 

djones51, Neil deGrasse Tyson admits that gravity can't be explained! Interesting.....

I find it rather funny that people who claim that those who hear no differences "have obviously never done the experiments". Does it ever reach consideration that they did do the experiments, rigorously, and properly, and that is why they have proven to themselves a lack of difference?   

I have no doubt, he’d have EXPERIMENTED with it!

      
I have no doubt the experiments would have been scientific experiments where variables are controlled. If you dismiss the scientific process why corrupt the memory of a scientist to support unscientific blathering?

You have a beautiful theory.  Expensive aftermarket power cords improve the sonic ability of the component. Now tell us about the experiments used that agree with the theory? Did any of them disagree with the theory? Could the theory be falsified? If so how? 

The embarrassment is in using a scientist to support unscientific nonsense. Let's  use Feynman, in your words tell why does a $ 1000 power cord sound different than a $10 power cord of equal gauge? 

Come on, guys. All you need to solve this sticky problem is a Poet Laureate and ten consecutive controlled blind tests. 🤗

@freedomgli and @rodman99999 : stop feeding the Troll. You will get nowhere. It will continue to be a circular argument going nowhere and you will accomplish nothing but empower him on his anti-audio hobby

Too lazy to copy/paste something, in your search bar?     Typical naysayer, to ignore something so simple!      If he ever owned a sound system, I have no doubt, he’d have EXPERIMENTED with it!       Your ilk is an embarrassment, to the scientific community, not to mention: a waste of keystrokes. https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/richard_p_feynman_160383

 As one notable, Physicist, theorist and Nobel Laureate is usually quoted, " It doesn’t matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are. If it doesn’t agree with experiment, it’s wrong."      THAT’S, "logic".

Who is this notable Nobel Laureate? I doubt very seriously if his criteria for experiment is put a cable in a system sighted and proclaim the sonic superiority of the cable. Physicists, theorists and Nobel laureates use stringent criteria for experiment. 

Experimentation in science requires more rigour that almost all audiophiles ever subject themselves to. Every change can't and isn't "night and day", though so often that is exactly what is reported due to confirmation bias and nothing else. Absent knowing the change, audiophiles can rarely with any accuracy identify a cable change which blows that whole "night and day" claims out of the water. Meanwhile they are still "trusting their ears" while having no clue about their room response, nor dealing with the acoustic issues far worse than any cable.

The hypothesis is (whatever the particular wire, tweak, etc); that a change (good or bad) can be heard.     If one desires to apply, "science", to an agenda, regarding their listening enjoyment; experimentation is an absolute requirement.     iow: One must actually TRY, whatever’s being discussed, with their own ears, in their own system.      The electrical/electronic variables, as well as biases and/or aural acuity, are too myriad to calculate.      As one notable Physicist, theorist and Nobel Laureate (popular, for his lectures on QED) is usually quoted, " It doesn’t matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn’t matter how smart you are.    If it doesn’t agree with experiment, it’s wrong."       THAT’S, "logic".

Most would have no clue how MOVs work or appear in the circuit because they would know that effectively when there is no surge, the MOV is would be doing nothing that could impact sound. Now if you mean inductors which are often in surge protectors, then yes you could argue an impact. Whole home surge protectors are usually just a bunch of MOVs in a box perhaps with GDTs depending on where you are.


Most of those construction details you listed are relatively meaningless (except shielding) except on a marketing sheet and express themselves as LCR. That giant filter, I mean power transformer in the equipment is going to be dominant by far for power delivery. The next variable would be ground continuity between equipment and finally shielding.


Absent any real knowledge or information reasonably intelligent people will make up all kinds of "ideas" to support their preferred view. It's not just cables, have a gander at the MDF, Plywood (which extends to aluminum and solid wood) discussion, or discussions about sound stage made without even a basic understanding of how we perceive position or acceptance of basic geometry.

Power cord must be:

1.UL rated
2.Originally supplied, or meeting same specs as original
3.Long enough to reach your units easily ie. no tension
4.Connected to a good quality surge protector (unless your stereo is a cheaper crap than the power cord itself ;) )

Not sure if you're being serious or sarcastic. Tone of voice and humor can be difficult to convey on the computer screen. But I'll address each of your points.

1. Most aftermarket cables aren't UL listed because the certification process is costly. UL standards helps ensure mass produced cables meet minimum safety requirements for fire safety and electrical shock protection. It is a risk management tool for very large corporations. Low volume, boutique cables cannot justify the expense of a UL listing. That doesn't mean their build quality or safety is sub-par. 

2. Which specs? Same LCR? Same quality and type of conductor material, number and gauge of conductors, layup design geometry, filling interstices, tape barrier, mechanical and electrical shielding, outer jacket? What about connectors?

3. This is a huge variable from system to system. Which is one reason why aftermarket cables are prolific. 

4. I know many people who run amps directly to the wall receptacle w/o any surge protection devices. Some more experienced friends' systems use whole home surge protection device installed at the main electrical service panel or a sub panel. They're not cheap. Many of my hifi friends use that in addition to dedicated 20 amp circuits for each device, quality receptacles, balanced power transformers or AC regeneration devices like PS Audio Power Plant. Most would agree that MOV based surge protectors do the sound quality no favors.

danvignau,

"The tweaky magic stuff allows you to share the experience of visiting your dealer to talk about your hobby. It makes you happier, so you believe it works. This is a great marketing plan, because every time you visit the store, is a selling opportunity for new equipment.."



Yes it does work for some, the same way that hypnosis, placebo and optical illusions do. Unfortunately all of these phenomena only have short term temporary effects.

Otherwise we could all escape our earthbound existence to live in our illusions indefinitely. Attempts to do so via audio style retail therapy are also inevitably doomed to failure unless we can make genuine lasting improvements to our playback experience.

I remember reading that Paul McKenna (well known UK hypnotist) confessing how he once hypnotised his partner into believing that he was a fantastic lover but to his regret (and possibly hers) the effect of this trance like state could not be maintained indefinitely.

Lasting satisfaction, on the other hand is not something many of us audiophiles easily find.

I’m probably the closest to it currently as I’ve ever been. It’s now about 6 years since I’ve made a component change to my system (Creek Destiny integrated amp which has considerable more power than its predecessor), and 10 years since I replaced my Ruarks with the Tannoys.

So do I still want better sound playback? You bet I do! My love for music is as strong as it was ever was. Two days ago I couldn’t get Dylan’s Senor out of my head, yesterday it was R.E.M.s Losing My Religion - very weird as it’s not one of my favourites by them.

However, I’m also far more wary and suspicious than I once was.

As they say ’Once bitten, twice shy’.

Although to say only once bitten in my case would be a seriously gross denial.

Nowadays another adage spring to mind,

Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.

Ok, ok, give or take a dozen or so times. It wasn’t all my fault, I am an audiophile. Albeit a thoroughly shamed one at that.

I don’t turn my nose up at a placebo or expectation bias, as long as it improves the sound.

Do you mean smoke a blunt? 

The tweaky magic stuff allows you to share the experience of visiting your dealer to talk about your hobby.  It makes you happier, so you believe it works. This is a great marketing plan, because every time you visit the store, is a selling opportunity for new equipment.. 

Let me blunt: I will no longer feed YOU

You should know all about trolls, they put the magic in your wires.

Then again, given the inherent irrationality/contradictions of Darwinism, and how many people uncritically accept that despite it's being scientifically falsified (insofar as soft science can be),

 For some reason I'm not amazed. I assume you question gravity as well being only a theory or are you in the intelligent falling theory camp? 

I learned a long time ago that feeding the trolls is bad. It empowers them. And yet, I keep doing it. I should not. 

I have always been amazed - but I shouldn't be - at how confused so many audiophiles are in regard to systems. Many of these posts read as guidance for "How to build a mediocre audio system".  :(

Then again, given the inherent irrationality/contradictions of Darwinism, and how many people uncritically accept that despite it's being scientifically falsified (insofar as soft science can be), it's no wonder they can't figure out how to advance an audio system to its full potential.  

I'm not interested in arguing about my perspective.  

djones51

When logic and science fail you what's left? Oh yeah, your system is junk and you're deaf.

Ironically, that statement is a non-sequitur, a logical fallacy.

dbphd

No- your thinking is not flawed nor would Ayre supply a PC that under performs it's gear. Regarding aftermarket PC, I tested the stock Ayre vs Audioquest Tornado model. The sonic difference between those PCs were not that far apart to my surprise. Of course, moving up any aftermarket PC chain would widen the sonic gap. Performance and price-point in effect. Charlie,  is certainly having a good laugh.

Happy Listening!

When logic and science fail you what's left? Oh yeah, your system is junk and you're deaf. If it makes HUGE,SIGNIFICANT. Etc... differences then it can be quantified if not read cd318 post or better yet get a book on psychoacustics.

Of course aftermarket power cords matter.

They matter to those who sell them and those, like myself, who have spent good money on them.

Yes, they also make a significant difference to the sound. Or at least I thought they did after initially plugging them in. Heck, I even went to the great trouble of rewiring my Sony MiniDisc player.

After years of being taken in (and scammed) I'd now say they make bugger all difference to stock leads.

The relationship between vision and audio (or any) expectation is well known. For example I tried listening to two identical pieces of music - one with some visual stimulus eg an LP/CD/album art/ video and the other without.

Every time I did this I felt a strong compulsion to prefer the one accompanied by visual stimulus. I'd recommend anyone trying this for themselves just to familiarise themselves with this strange phenomena.

This, despite what they might say, is the main reason blind testing is so frowned upon by those marketing such products.

A similar thing happens if you clean all the contacts in your audio chain. Initially you will 'hear' improved clarity but very soon after this newfound clarity tends to strangely evaporate. Expectation bias, a likely cousin of the placebo effect, definitely exists.

Tricks of perception have been documented for decades and used in marketing for much much longer.

As Cain said to Abel....

Depends on your equipment and ears, for me myself I have heard a phenomenal increase in sound quality using various models of cables by Mad Scientist Audio(New Zealand) and their prices aren’t in the stratospheric range as some are.

Interesting. What would be the shortest power cable length that matters?

Pretty sure that "electricity runs for miles.... then gets to the magical power cord..." is his sarcastic way of trying to say something without ever having to, you know, come out and say it. 

Since he's afraid, or more likely simply hasn't thought it through, what he's trying to say is those last few feet can't possibly matter. Or the other way he might like to put it, if he would actually put it instead of sniping, you'd have to replace all the wire to the dam. Both of which seem to have a grain of truth even though they are ultimately misleading.

Its true every foot matters. Might even go all the way back to the dam for all I know. It certainly goes as far as the drop line. And according to a couple very reliable listeners it goes as far out as the neighborhood transformer. 

Of course the 5 ft of power cord matters. There's nothing magical about it at all. Its simply that some amount of degradation happens every inch of the way. Minimizing it for 5 ft is an improvement. I've done that in stages all the way back to the step down transformer, then to the panel, then the panel itself, and the meter. Others like I've said have gone even further. For every foot you do the sound improves.

People wonder and get triggered and argue when I say how fantastic it sounds. But you know what? Its only the people who haven't tried these things that get all worked up. The ones who've done it, we all know. 

dowjones wrote:

" Electricity runs for miles through steel/aluminum wire hits the transformer for your house steps down and comes through the meter, panel, feet of regular copper wire, receptacle then gets to the magical power cord that changes something or the other then goes through a filter in the amp, another transformer, regular 12 or 14 gauge wire in the amp but through this whole thing it’s that few feet of magic wire that adds those wonderful inky black background, open soundstage , voices floating in front of the speakers and pianos beside your couch"

I couldn't agree more. If your system has the resolution & your hearing is at least average, a high end aftermarket power cord can greatly improve the sound quality.   

Not yet.  I'm in the process of moving stuff from one rack to another.

now that you're back dbphd, have you compared the power cords?

I suspect you're right.  

I haven't looked at this thread recently.  I'm amazed by how it's grown.  Glad I didn't ask about something controversial like MQA.

I am reasonably sure Charlie ( founder of Ayre and an engineer with ears ) is laughing in heaven tonight.....

rockysantoro:

Who is this millercarbon dude? Is he some sort of expert on all things concerning hi-fidelity? What are his credentials?

Same as yours. Credentials are a chimera. I mean that literally: a mythological, fire-breathing monster, commonly represented with a lion's head, a goat's body, and a serpent's tail. I'm not big on credentials. I go by what a person is actually able to do, not by what some administrative bureaucratic sanctioning group of committees says they know. 

That said, here are my "credentials":

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367

You could also read through my posts. Quite a few of them are in total agreement with this one of yours from back in December:

Static and electromagnetic energy degrade the end result(what comes out of your speakers).Every component is affected,cables,power cords,amps CD players,orDACS.The presence of or lack of this energy,is why your system sounds better some days,and not so good on others.

Not too shabby. Keep up the good work.

thyname674 posts04-23-2020 12:44pmLOL!! This must be the most preposterous (I am trying to be nice) post I have seen in years in this hobby. Voiding the warranty for using a power cord other than the stock power cord?? LOL!!

I was reading at Decware the owner made up his own cable, out of fear his customer kept buying bigger and bigger and, you get my point.  He was worried about damage from, to heavy, and to big. That was a few years back, he has a whole line of cables now. 

It is a sight to behold, a PC flip an amp off a table, because the cable is heavier than the amp.  It wasn't funny.  I'm glad it wasn't  me for once..
LOL hope he doesn't read this.. The LOL part.. LOL

Yes different PCs sound different, different ends, different size, different cladding, different, different, different. I've been tinkering, they do sound and perform different.. I'm finding "TO BIG" can just kill a components potential, and vice versa, can leave a hole lot of potential on the table, too.

Regards

If you are in a money-saving DIY mood:

Install an external LIVE solid AWG 16 to 12 copper or silver wire to a conventional power cord. 

Strip two inches of the outer insulation sleeve just before the connectors at both ends.  Then cut the LIVE wire (use meter to find live wire) leaving two inch tails leading to the connector at each end to which you can solder an external wire that is least five inches longer than the power cable.   Wrap live wire connections only with electrical tape.

Keep the external wire at least two to three inches away from the power cable's neutral/ground wires for the entire length of the cable and plug it in. 

Connect one of these cables to components one at time.  Audition the improvement as each component's new external LIVE wire cable is installed.

You can also start from scratch with connectors and wire. I use 12 AWG stranded copper wire for neutral and ground wires. I use solid naked silver 16 AWG wire encased in an 11 AWG Teflon tube or two layers of expandable poly sleeve for for LIVE wire connected to Sonarquest connectors. Frankly, the modified conventional cable sound about the same.

The theory is that parallel LIVE and neutral wires cause induction that produces noise.  Whether that is what happens is beyond my ken.  Whatever it is, it works.  Bass is tightened and voices are sweeter.

Compare results.

Cheers

"Is he some sort of expert on all things concerning hi-fidelity?"

He is some sort of expert in everything. His credentials are on display throughout these threads.

+1 tjarmstrong

Yes power cords can make a noticable difference.  I have heard it many times over and it is not placebo because I have heard expensive cables which I did not like.   The placebo argument is weak at best.  Measurement in audio are insufficient to really explain what is happening.  We can not measure everything we can hear.

Ayre don't want you to have junk laying around  So they
sell what you want only  

Who is this millercarbon dude?

Nobody that understands what we consider important.

They deleted my Clueless Clump of Cells post I thought I was rather benign this time🙄

He speaks highly of you, too.

Who is this millercarbon dude?

Noone,  you'll notice him shilling worthless tweaks and linking conspiracy theory websites for the most part. 

raysmtb1

The amplifier they’re talking about in this thread has a mains filter in the amp. They mention it on their website and say in some areas with noisy lines you can add one of their line conditioners. Nowhere do they talk about power cords. I try not to get in the cable nonsense and stay away from interconnects and speaker cable but when it gets to power cables it’s to much. Electricity runs for miles through steel/aluminum wire hits the transformer for your house steps down and comes through the meter, panel, feet of regular copper wire, receptacle then gets to the magical power cord that changes something or the other then goes through a filter in the amp, another transformer, regular 12 or 14 gauge wire in the amp but through this whole thing it’s that few feet of magic wire that adds those wonderful inky black background, open soundstage , voices floating in front of the speakers and pianos beside your couch. Power cable bull is worse than the nonsense they attribute to ethernet and USB cables.

Who is this millercarbon dude? Is he some sort of  expert on all things concerning hi-fidelity? What are his credentials?

By the way, I just read my previous post. It reads horribly. I was in an accident and I am a highly functioning quadriplegic. I rely on Siri to put all this into print.Lately she has been doing a horrible job and I am on able to go back and correct her mistakes. Please bear with me, I’m not an idiot although when you read one of my posts it sounds that way