Atlantic City casinos closing...

Photon46,

Reading through your last post, I wont say I agree with every single word, but there's very little I disagree with. I think found disagreement when some of the other posts portrayed an overly dismal situation for the poor. Sort of like, poor people are doomed and there is very little they can do about it. I know they didn't mean that literally, but I think the picture was a little too dark. Also, you do a better job of classifying the different types of poor people. Someone born into poverty and not receiving a proper upbringing by their parents, will probably be at more of a disadvantage than someone like me, who was only poor for a short while.

"That said, does that mean that we should abandon all hope and stop trying to save the few that CAN rise above their poor circumstances of birth?"

I never said that. But I do feel that you can help too much.

"Much of my work is at the other side of the educational spectrum with college students. Believe me, I see plenty of students who are the first ones in their families to go to college and they ARE rising above it all and they will stop perpetuating their family's cycle of poverty. Without the programs you say "aren't working," there would be many thousands of college students without the opportunity to change their lives. No doubt you are correct that we spend billions on social programs with inadequate outcomes. "

Just to clarify, I wasn't talking about college loans and grants. I should have been more clear. Loans for school are great programs. I put myself through school with a Stafford loan. The only big problem I see with loans is not the students, but the schools themselves. All these new vocational type schools popping up with ultra high tuition costs, are doing a lot of damage. 6 month programs that cost about 15k and credits that don't transfer.

"07-23-14: Nonoise
It's nice to see a civil discussion here. There is, however, one meme that I have to slay and that is the "billions" we spend on the poor. It sounds like a lot but compared to what?"

You're absolutely right. We're spending trillions in other areas. Personally, though, I really don't like doing these type of comparative analyses. Each problem needs to be dealt with, not in comparison with different issues, but on their own merits. If we have to look at social programs in billions, then that's what it is. If defense spending is in trillions, then we have to look at it on that scale. Diverting money from one problem to the other won't fix anything. Good planning and oversight (if that's even possible) are how to deal with these problems.

"Are you sure you're pissed off at the right people?"

I find that people are usually more pissed off at me, as opposed to me being pissed at them. I have no idea why.

Zd542, thanks for that last sentence: I needed to laugh.

All the best,
Nonoise

Zd542, It is all too easy to feel the poor are doomed when we look at the numbers. The older I've gotten, the more I think we all give ourselves too much credit for our accomplishments in life. By that I mean that the vast majority of humans just live out their lives in the same patterns they were taught and exposed to in their formative years. Yes, I went to college, made good grades, worked hard at jobs that weren't ideal when I was younger, and worked my way up the ladder of prosperity as I got older. However, I had a road map of how to do it by cultural example and I'm an Anglo white male that's part of a group with a lot of advantages built in by luck of birth.

I once worked with a man who was born into a wealthy family and he married a daughter of one of the wealthiest and most influential business leaders in our part of the country. He quit working in the business we were in at the time and devoted himself full time to managing his wife's money right at the time the stock market was entering a prolonged bull run (he had training as a broker.) A monkey throwing darts at the financial page NASDAQ listings could make winning decisions in that environment. One day years later when our paths crossed again he remarked with great pride at how well he'd done and how hard he'd worked. When I mentioned that he might take solace in his good fortune in life, he became angry and vehemently denied that family, luck of birth, and good fortune played any role in his lot in life. I just let it go because you're obviously not going to change someone's world view in an argument like that. While an extreme example, I think that type of thinking is very prevalent among those who've done well in the world.

There are definitely those who rise above their lot in life and become successful, but our society is in a downward spiral because so few can or make the effort to do so.

I do completely agree with you about "for profit" universities and it will be interesting to see if we can come up with a way to rein in their predatory practices.

Trelja,
I am in Central N.J.
I grew up in Freehold.
I lived the life Springsteen sang about in his song "My Hometown".
I started in manufacturing in 1981 as a Quality Control Inspector. It took 12 more years until the plant closed. I was at my next position for another 12 years until that company was sold. Since then I have been laid off numerous times due to layoffs, employee reductions in the work force and jobs being sent overseas.
The economy has not been kind to the manufacturing industry in America.
I am a Quality Assurance Inspector by trade, this is what I do. Tomorrow is my 58th birthday and I've had some of the hardest times in my life for last 16 months. Is this all my fault? Younger untrained people willing to work for much less then me, competition from other people in the same boat as me.
My new position pays less then my last one and I am forced to work the grave yard shift but that's life. Not the life I had hoped for in this stage of the game but at least I can start getting out of debt.
I do not resent success and the pleasure it brings, I like my toys like most of us but it shouldn't be so god damned hard.

"I once worked with a man who was born into a wealthy family and he married a daughter of one of the wealthiest and most influential business leaders in our part of the country. He quit working in the business we were in at the time and devoted himself full time to managing his wife's money right at the time the stock market was entering a prolonged bull run (he had training as a broker.) A monkey throwing darts at the financial page NASDAQ listings could make winning decisions in that environment. One day years later when our paths crossed again he remarked with great pride at how well he'd done and how hard he'd worked. When I mentioned that he might take solace in his good fortune in life, he became angry and vehemently denied that family, luck of birth, and good fortune played any role in his lot in life."

Are you still in contact with that guy? I'd really like to talk to him and see how he did it. lol. I don't know if you've ever tried to trade like that for a living, but I can tell you its not easy. He could have gotten lucky, but its far more likely he worked very hard.

"When I mentioned that he might take solace in his good fortune in life, he became angry and vehemently denied that family, luck of birth, and good fortune played any role in his lot in life. I just let it go because you're obviously not going to change someone's world view in an argument like that."

I do understand what you are trying to say in all this, but have another look at the last sentence. How do you know you were right to begin with? Yes, he could have gotten lucky or he could have worked very hard, who knows? I know you weren't trying to offend the guy but when you say: "I just let it go because you're obviously not going to change someone's world view in an argument like that.", I can see where he may have gotten mad. How would you react if he tried to change your world view? You would probably say something like what he said to you.

"I do completely agree with you about "for profit" universities and it will be interesting to see if we can come up with a way to rein in their predatory practices."

I just wanted to clarify what type of school I was talking about. I'm not against a college just because it's for profit. I went to a regular 4 year college that was in business to make a profit. Many people go to schools like that and they're not being ripped off. The schools I'm talking about are called loan mills. These type of schools target people that don't have any type of education above high school. The tuition is based solely on the maximum amount of loans and grants that are available to your average person. They promise the students high paying jobs after graduation, but in the end, its all a bunch of crap. If you are looking for a good example of how the poor are being taken advantage of, this is it. These schools are not only loading people up with debt that they probably will never be able to repay, but the tax payers are taking a huge hit, as well.