Audiogon members poor packing and shipping damage

Everyone knows that shippers have the potential to really mess things up. Any package should be packed as carefully as possible. You'd have to more than a few screws loose if you just stick something haphazardly in a box and send it on its merry way.

I received something I'd won online that was used but I was happy to get it. The box it came in was bigger than the integrated itself. A few (literally) peanuts were in it. The front panel was hanging on by a single screw. A total of 11 screws were loose in the box and the unit. The unit was open on two corners. The wiring had torn away from the volume pot and there was a huge dent on the back of the unit where the speakers terminals were that matched the dent on the outside of the package where it must have been dropped from a considerable height. The reviewer who had it stated he had reassembled it properly before shipping it. Yeah, right. I was able to resurrect it with the help of a local electronics shop.

Buyer (or winner) beware.

All the best,
Nonoise

In the case of audiogon, where delicate items costing thousands of dollars or more are shipped regularly, its even more important than in many cases that things be done right.

A $10000 amp or pair of speakers is too costly and risky for buyer and seller to not pack properly. The cost to do so may be significant but a small % of the total cost. WHoever ends up paying for it based on negotiation, terms, whatever it has to be done.

Its both parties responsibility but the buyer is theone most likely to suffer in the case of a problem, so a smart buyer will make sure everything is in line with the seller to best assure safe shipping and perhaps insurance before the item is shipped, ideally before even payed for. If a seller would not cooperate with me on this, then I would look for another seller.

Ronald Reagan in his infinite wisdom did say it best: "Trust, but verify".

A good seller packages items to withstand the worst conceivable handling for the item being shipped. This should be considered a two-way street in that there is nothing wrong with the buyer taking an interest in how an item is go be packaged, especially something heavy, big, and/or fragile.

Buyers should ask how the seller intends to package their newly purchased item, whether the original manufacturer's packaging will be used, and what shape that packaging is in. If an item has been shipped many times, the once good original packaging may no longer be adequate. I received a "new demo" NAT Symmetrical preamp (an expensive, large and quite heavy preamp) in a "wood box." Believe me, there is a world of difference between the Lamm amps I have received in their foam lined, braced, wood boxes, and this crappy NAT packaging. The preamp was essentially riding loose with minimal pieces of broken styrofoam inside of a broken thin particle board enclosure. There were not even any braces at the corners or edges - sheet rock screws drilled through small metal angles and, in some cases, drilled directly into the edges of the thin particle board, were the only supports holding the box together! And yes, the preamp was damaged when received. In this case I had asked the seller specifically about the quality of the packaging and was assured by the seller, who is an audio dealer, that the packaging was excellent. Within a day I had contacted the seller and sent digital pictures of the damage. After some negotiation, the preamp was returned.

I also agree with Elizabeth's 7-day rule. If you will not be available to take shipment, then have the seller delay sending the item. What if it arrives pancaked? Do you want the delivery person to simply drop it off on your porch? A responsible buyer should arrange to be available to receive shipment or at least to verify the condition within a day of arrival. The item should be auditioned and verified to work properly within a day, and no more than 3 days, of receiving shipment. Buying a used item from the internet is different than taking a shipment of a pair of jeans from Macy's. The buyer needs to understand the two-way communication necessary to create a win-win for both parties. Ideally, both buyer and seller need to be on their game, not only to prevent scams, etc., but simply as a matter of mutual respect.

Ask about double boxing if you belive that may be necessary. Lamm industries does not recommend shipping using any other method than FedEx Saver - which is a 3-day air method. The big shippers use third-party truckers for ground shipping and there is no QA as to how the package will be treated. Sure, air shipping methods cost extra money, but my experience is the items are handled with more care and arrive sooner (so less time in the shipper's hands), resulting in less risk of damage.

Finally, never ship big speakers solely in the manufacturer's packaging. Put them on a pallet and have them trucked. The incident of damage is just too common. Even for medium speakers, provide a minimum of auxillary packaging to protect them from drops etc. The heavier and bulkier an item is, the more likely an incident where it is dropped or falls off the dreaded conveyor.

These are my personal observations and practices and except for some early lessons learned the hard way, they have served me very well.

If I do not have the original packing materials I pay FedEx or UPS to pack the items in order that if I need to place a claim they can't claim that the item was improperly packed.

Lets to to the UPS. It is not for no reason that UPS generally only pays damage claims on electronics if the item is shipped in the manufacturers boxes and uses all he manufacturers packing materials. Even then, you have a hassel since older items did not have the packing and shipping standards that are practice today. A must is double boxing and let the UPS store do the boxing of the original boxes and packing materials. So, any buy is risky unless picked up and the seller demo's the item before your cash is in his hand. By the way, UPS can deny, out of hand, any shipment that did not use the original manufacturers packing materials and boxes.

You have to ship things bomb proof. I use original boxes and another box with foam in it for anything I ship. When you buy something always use a CC linked to paypal and use your credit card company to get you a chargeback. If there is a claim for damage, the shipper pays the seller and the seller reimburses the buyer. I agree tubes should always be shipped in their own containers just like the way they are shipped from the dealer. Then double box for safety.

Jmcgrogan2 we'll agree to disagree. I agree completley that your buyer contacting you after 6 weeks was ridiculous, but flexibility within reason is not a bad thing.

How is it that UPS / FedEx didn't pick up on the fact that the 3.7's were so poorly packed? My local shops routinely tell me the packaging has to be able to withstand a 4 foot fall on to a concrete floor… without damaging the contents. In response I typically tell them to E-mail their CEO suggesting they install rails on their conveyer system. I always go way beyond the bucket with my packaging. I’m sure the buyers must think I’m looney when they open the item.

You are a tough buyer Foster_9, I think Elizabeth's rule of 7 days is adequate. The buyer has to assume some liability in this transaction and checking the gear out promptly should be expected. After all, we are not dealers selling new product here, we are hobbyists selling used gear. I think a week is sufficient time for a buyer to check out for damage. If over a week, I'd be willing to help the buyer recover possible damage claims....but you snooze, you lose in the used market. Overall I think if you don't have time to listen in a timely fashion that should become a factor in your purchasing decision. Maybe you need to buy from a dealer instead of a hobbyist. After all, how long is the seller suppose to be strung out? 10 days? 2 weeks? 1 month? 3 months? 1 year? In a previous reply here, I said I had a buyer come back to me 6 weeks after purchase and say he finally got around to trying the phono stage and that it was not working. It worked perfectly when I shipped it, how long should I wait for a buyer to honor his end of the bargain and check out the gear?

This is off-topic, since the OP did not indicate that there was a time delay before opening his new toys. If the items arrive and damage is immediately noted, the seller should hold full responsibility.

Careful handling during shpping would be nice, but now days the entire world's in a hurry, time = money.

I put fragile labels everywhere, with heavy insurance, things get thrown harder.

I witnessed it numerous times from the conveyors, the trucks, to the doorstep.

Pack well or pay later.

You are a tough seller Elizabeth regarding issues after receiving a unit- So if there is any issue after 7 days beyond receipt of the product by the buyer, it's the buyer's problem and not the seller's? Seems a bit unreasonable to me. For me, due to a hectic summer schedule where I was out of town 2 weekends in a row, it was 9 days after delivery before I connected a newly purchased, used tube preamp in my system. When I connected it to my setup, it did not work properly, but there was no damage to the shipping carton or the preamp. It was packed properly, other than the tubes (8) being left in the preamp during shipping. I did not complain about this, although the tubes should have been taken out (in fact I did not think to mention the tubes being left in). I guess my inexperience with tubed equipment is why I did not think about the tubes being left in the preamp. I emailed the seller who is a real gentleman, great communicator and seems to be a very nice guy, and after discussing the situation with the preamp manufacturing service center, I'm shipping the preamp for service. The seller agreed to split the cost of service since the preamp is not working properly. I think this is reasonable and fair by the seller. I'm glad his attitude is not as rigid as yours regarding the days that have gone by since the preamp was delivered. I will say that it is "my bad" that I did not address with the seller, the fact that the tubes were not taken out of the preamp and boxed separately for shipping, but again it was my inexperience and forgetting one of the rules of shipping tubed gear. In fact, I should have remembered this rule since I once owned a tubed preamp (Cary SLP 05) with 8 tubes, and when I sold it, I shipped it with the tubes in separate boxes, the same way I received it.

Equipment should be packaged to ensure safe shipping. Not all who sell are professionals though so, mistakes can happen more often than otherwise. Its a risk. Best for the buyer to confirm details of how gear will be shipped with the seller beforehand just to be sure.

Bummer-
I usually look for items with original packaging and members with excellent feedback to help elimintae this issue. I have not had any issues, thankfully. However, I do receive the occational used lp packaged horribly-tape stuck to cover, flimsy packaging. But most stuff is from guys that take care. I agree with comments that if damage isnt brought to the attention of the seller ASAP it is suspect. After 4 weeks, I dont think I would do much to help...

06-21-12: Abucktwoeighty
What do you say to someone who sends an email asking about damage to the corner of an item nearly 4 weeks after it was delivered?

I had something similar happen to me. A fellow I sold a phono preamp to contacted me 6 weeks later and said it wasn't working right. I tried to contact Fed Ex and have them look into shipping damage, but the guy never replied to my e-mails. I just gave up. I'm not a dealer, I don't have an obligation after a couple of days after receipt as far as I see it. But I'm willing to try and help someone out if I can. The buy needs to have some responsibility here. I think they need to thouroughly inspect the item within 48 hours of delivery. If the buyer can't be bothered, why should I?

A couple of questions, first, was everything packed in original shipping cartons? Second, if there was shipping damage, why did you accept the items? The reason for the first question is that I place high value on original manufacturer packaging, yes it adds to the buying cost, but it's worth it. If you tried to save some dough by buying something cheaper that doesn't have all of it's original packaging....well, you learned the hard way.

I asked the second question because I do not accept damaged items. I have had items damaged in shipping from me in original boxes too, and I've taken returns. So I'm wondering what type of a person would just accept damaged goods. Yes, packaging takes time and effort, but even the best packaging can be damaged in shipping. If it's well packed in original shipping container and damage occurs, the seller should be able to collect on the insurance. DO NOT ship it back without contacting the seller, or the insurance he purchased would become invalid. I've been on both ends, believe me, shipping damage claims are a MUCH bigger pain for the seller.

What do you say to someone who sends an email asking about damage to the corner of an item nearly 4 weeks after it was delivered? Maybe it should have been reported when it arrived??? Just had this happen. I told him to contact the shipper at his end, and that I would help in any way possible from my end. Emailed him again, but no reply.
The item was packaged with great care. If there was damage, the package was dropped from a good height.

If the seller does not have the original packaging, he should be familiar with the way new products are shipped. In the case of a heavy amplifier, the manufacturer suspends the amp in blocks of foam in a sturdy box large enough to keep the amp well away from the edges of the box. The foam is rigid enough to keep the amp from moving, but resilient enough to absorb shock. This box is then placed in another box with enough packing material between them to absorb shock and keep the inner box from shifting around. If you must use foam peanuts, the ONLY appropriate place is between the two boxes.

I once received a Hafler D-500 (a very heavy amp) that was packed in a light-weight box with nothing but peanuts. The amp was, of course, damaged and protruding from a hole it blasted in the side of the box.

AAAARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!

I also agree with you guys. I go out of my way to OVER package and make sure the item will arrive in perfect shape.

I need to get this off of my chest: I have been buying ALOT of LP's recently and can't believe the improper way these are shipped! Come on guys, it's not rocket science. Whether it's a piece of gear or an LP, please ship with proper boxes and packaging and taped correctly. GEEZ.

I completely agree with you. It is the sellers obligation to properly package all items to withstand the stresses of shipping. I have routinely created custom internal packaging to replace broken-down factory shipping materials in order to insure the buyer received the item in the best possible condition.

I too have excellent feedback that reflects the efforts I always put into packaging.

I'm really sorry you are having to deal with this. It is completely unnecessary. A little extra thought and effort, plus a few dollars in extra shipping materials, could have prevented all of this hassle.