Hi Theducker, thank you for your reply, you might check out northwest Florida, Destin is quite nice, so is fort Walton, and Pensacola. :-)
112 responses Add your response
Miami currently but looking all over for a house for me! Miami is expensive at the moment, so I'm looking everywhere! I am sure the keys are a bit isolated, and day drinking in my camper van isn't something I aspire to... Nevertheless, I am looking there, and in Miami, and Broward and Palm Beach as well as gulf side... |
I used to DIY power cords out of Belden and other cables, yes, including Romex. Shielded 12ga. was good too, and I was happy. They got power to the equipment from the wall, were not prone to EMI, and this all seemed really good! If you had told me I would be buying silver foil power cords for a big chunk of change, I would have laughed. Until I passed through Atlanta and went to Verastarr Audio. Mike had invited me in to hear his power cords anytime, so I thought I would stop by. A phone call arranged a demo. I was on my way to Florida, I had decided to move after selling my small business. My MN house was being completely remodelled, and all my systems were taken down and in storage for the foreseeable future. I sure didn't need to buy anything. It was the best demo I ever had, and the best I had ever hear a system sound. I have never hear Magnepans sound like that, ever. They never actually disappeared because the speakers simply were _not there_, ever. This is unbelievable because this rarely happens with Magnepans, and when it does, they generally disappear for only a few seconds at a time, not so with his system! I had never experienced this anywhere close to the degree I heard it at Verastarr. Mike Powell had a fully modified Jolida integrated driving Magnepan MG-12 speakers, with his Grand Illusion II power cord on it, and his DAC had a Grand Illusion II power cord too. At the time, he was voicing the newest revision Grand Illusion II power cords To get some sort of baseline, I asked him to take the power cord off the DAC, and put a general purpose, cheapie IEC cord in its place, After about ten seconds, I asked him to please put the Grand Illusion II cord back into place. The music had been completely robbed and stripped of the dynamics, rhythm, and snap, the PRAT was diminished, the goosebumps on top of goosebumps were all gone. (Normally this would leave one layer of goosebumps, but in this case, they were ALL gone.) The sense of being completely immersed in the musical moment was completely gone! Simply put, it sounded _like a stereo_. Like I said, I would have laughed. if you had told me I was going to spend good money on a power cord, I would have laughed at you. Even more so if you would have asked me to purchase them when my system was in storage, and not even set up... But MSRP got discounted, and then it got affordable. The credit card emerged. I knew I had to have the cords on 2 CD players and a preamp, for starters... And the fact that I was remodeling and my system was in storage became moot- I knew I would have it together again, and I needed what these cords brought to the party. Now I own three of them, and I'm convinced that nothing but a foil power cord will give you the results I have gotten. There is simply something about foil topology that just sounds right. I hadn't actually bought anything from Mike for many years, probably since 2010. Usually I don't buy ANYTHING new! I was happy to put my money down. (I realize this sounds like a shill, but I am not affiliated with Verastarr in any way other than a customer. And it had been five years since I had previously purchased his lowest priced interconnects and speaker wire. To the OP- send Mike your Jolida for the full mod package. When I heard that integrated, the performance was so good, it made me upset! I have a pair of tube amps that retailed for 45k, and another that were 30k. That modified jolida... grr. The fact that anyone got that level of performance for that little money made me feel like I missed the boat... |
I had a signal magic PC on my EAR 868. When I replaced it with the Triode Wire Labs 7+ it made a big difference. Leading edges of vocals were softer. Unnecessary sibilance was gone. A much more organic sound all around. So I'd say yes, a PC can make a difference. I'm not an Electrical Engineer or even slightly technically inclined, so don't know how or why. Just saying it as I hear it.... |
Interesting question, deserves a good answer but I haven't got one, well actually I might. Not all gear benefits from an Audiophile power cord. I have found that most tube amps and some solid state amps derive very little benefit whereas many other ss amps do. This phenominum may have a lot to do with its power supply. But anyone who owns a Class D switching amp knows that a quality aftermarket power cord can make all the difference in the world. |
Thanks Al. I'm aware of the dangers of using solid core wire for power cords, but you bring up a good point. There are (or at least were) some aftermarket companies that make solid core power cords. I assume they are not UL listed and could result in insurance claim problems. I'm not sure I would want anything like that in my system. |
Ketchup, pending Ralph's response I'll mention that I'm pretty certain using Romex as a power cord would be a violation of electrical codes, and potentially an excuse for an insurance company to not pay in the event of a fire. Romex is designed for in-wall or other uses which would not cause it to be repeatedly flexed. If it is used in an application where it might be repeatedly flexed, the concern is that fractures could develop, which could lead to internal hot spots as a result of the increase in resistance that would occur at the locations of those fractures, which could result in fire. (The heat generated by a resistance is proportional to the amount of power it dissipates, which for a given amount of current is proportional to the amount of resistance). While it wouldn't surprise me if there are some audiophiles who have used Romex for power cords, it's not something that can be recommended. Regards, -- Al |
Romex wiring found in many buildings actually works quite well. So it really becomes all about that last few feet and also how well the power cord is terminated- molded cords generally are not terminated very well. Ralph (Atmasphere), Are you saying that a power cord made from Romex with quality terminations would make a great power cord if you can deal with the stiffness? Would you recommend twisting, braiding, or leaving the conductors parallel? |
... what is you caculation of the over all gauge?Assuming their descriptions of the wires are accurate, overall it is an 8 gauge cord as they indicated to you, since 14 x 24 awg + 2 x 12 awg for the hot and the neutral each correspond to 8 awg. The 6 awg for the ground run, which as I indicated is what corresponds to their description of 2 x 12 awg + 2 x 12 awg, doesn't affect the overall characterization of the cord as 8 awg, since assuming a major defect is not present in the equipment almost all of the current flows through just the hot and neutral conductors. Regards, -- Al |
Keith, thanks for providing this info. I must say, though, that it is not particularly confidence inspiring that their website says 10 gauge and 60 conductors, while their response to you says 8 gauge and a total of 36 conductors. Also, there are some minor inconsistencies in their response: 14 x 24 awg is approximately 13 awg, not 14 awg, and is actually a bit heavier (lower in gauge) than 13 awg. 2 x 12 awg is 9 awg, not 10 awg. 2 x 12 awg + 2 x 12 awg on the ground run (if that description is accurate) would be 6 awg, not 8 awg. Regards, -- Al |
Well, I did say I would get back to this thread, Tls49, As It turns out we are all wrong about the Tara Labs cobalt power cord, I recieved my E-mail from Tara Concering this Awg size, Here is the absolute correct build and resulting Gauge size, live run-14 times 24 GAUGE RSC = 14 awg... combined with 2 times 12 awg becomes 8 AWG, Neutral run...14 TIMES 24 AWG rsc = 14 AWG.. COMBINED WITH 2 TIMES 12 BECOMES 8 AWG, GROUND RUN... 2 TIMES 12 AWG = 10 AWG... COMBINED WITH 2 TIMES 12 AWG BECOMES 8 AWG, iN ADDITION, LIVE AND NEUTRAL RUNS ARE SHIELDED WITH 12 AWG EACH OF LARGE BRAIDED COPPER SHIELDING, CONNECTED WITH GROUND PATH., THERE YOU HAVE IT, THE COBALT IS 8 AWG OVERALL, Glad to been able to resolve this issue once and for all, cheers. |
Audiolabyrinth, as I said the power cord consists of 3 conductors. Hot - 20 runs of the smaller wire Neutral - 20 runs of the smaller wire Ground - 20 runs of the smaller wire for a total of 60 runs. You should use 20 in the AWG calculator for number of wires, not 60, to determine the equivalent gauge, as the gauge of the power cord is the size of only one of the conductors, not all 3 of them combined. |
Al and Tony, I agree, 20 parallel 23ga conductors make up each of three runs from IEC to plug. To me it was somewhat misleading in stating it was 60 conductors until I read how they described their other power cables. However, for this cable they only used enough ink for two sentences to describe it. |
I can highly recommend AC cords as they do seem to be a key component when one needs to get current from the wall to the gear. Not true anymore Soon all these ridiculous PC debates will be over... |
Tony (TSL49) is correct, as usual. 20 paralleled 23 gauge wires are equivalent to 10 gauge; 20 paralleled 24 gauge wires are equivalent to 11 gauge. Keith (Audiolabyrinth) had indicated earlier that 24 gauge wires are used in the Cobalt, so based on the supposition of 20 wires for each of the three conductors all of the numbers seem roughly (although not precisely) consistent. Regards, -- Al |
Audiolabyrinth, I believe you are confused again. A power cord consists of 3 conductors, hot, neutral and ground. The gauge of the power cord is the gauge of one of those conductors, not the 3 combined. Tara Labs specs the Cobalt as a 10 gauge power cord, so I'm thinking the 60 runs would be 20 runs in each of the 3 conductors, therefore making the 20 runs of this smaller wire equivalent to 10 gauge. Same is true for speaker cable that has 2 conductors, positive and negative. The gauge of the speaker cable is the gauge of one of those conductors, not the 2 combined. |
@ Tls49, I believe we both were mistaken as to what the Tara labs cobalt power cord's gauge size is, I do know that the conductors are 24 awg, and has 60 of them, you may confirm this on the Tara labs site, according to the wire caculator you supplied, My power cord gauge size is 6 gauge, BTW is really good, or you can use the other caculator, the power cord has three runs of 10 awg, and that turns out to be 5 gauge, either way, The cobalt is not 10 gauge. |
Power cables do make a difference...I've tried listening to my system without them and have been met with complete silence...no distortion or room mode interference of course, but no sound either...therefore I can highly recommend AC cords as they do seem to be a key component when one needs to get current from the wall to the gear. Call this a controversial position, but I'm sticking to it. |
I have a friend who profoundly claims that wire is wire..... copper is copper and silver is silver, they all sound alike whether it's power cords, speaker cables or interconnects. I asked him what high end cables he has heard. He said none. If you haven't heard it, you don't have an opinion. Regarding power cords and the "last 6 feet" argument, I would think if you had some sort of voltage regulation or power regeneration of some sort, you would then reap the benefits of a higher end power cord. That said, different cables make a difference. Meaning, in my opinion, MOSTLY all cables DO SOMETHING to the signal leaving the component. If you really want to hear what your system sounds like, theoretically speaking, you would use the exact same cables that are inside your components to CONNECT your components. When you place $3,000 speaker cables between your amp and speakers, your aren't "unlocking" hidden information inside your amplifier. Those cables are manipulating the signal to give it added "air" or more "warmth" or whatever. The cables used inside the amp that lead to the binding posts are usually just plain pure copper wires. Remove the cover of your amp and take a look at the wires going to the binding posts. High end cables are tone controls to the "n"th. |
If I was to replace my fine sounding but hipness challenged cords with Pangeas that cost under 100 bucks, or ZU audio that are even less in some cases, or entry level Shunyatas, would I then reap the benefits of better electron management? My system currently is very quiet, has PS Audio and Pangea power supply tweaks, and seems to sound great. What do I do with the then unused cables? Make jewelry? The notion that I'd borrow expensive stuff and see what matches best with my system has been obviated by my previous experiment with the one high end cord I have...zero difference...meaning my current batch of decent wire is working, or I'm a tim eared bonehed...I may simply ignore the entire exercise and continue to be ovepaid to mix live jazz concerts using unexotic cables...just don't blow my cover. |
06-06-14: AtmasphereAs a point of reference, Signal Cable offers 10 gauge cords in a six foot length for $83. They also offer a double-shielded 12 gauge cord intended for use with digital components in a six foot length for $124. Shorter lengths are also available, at lower prices. Descriptions are provided here (click the "more info" links). FWIW, I have used both with excellent results, as have several other members here in whose ears I trust. Best regards, -- Al |
The problem is that there is a very good chance that the power cord will be dumped in favor of another.Wow, I really did not expect that as a response. In that case why supply a power cord at all with the amp? Speaker dont come with speaker cables. Heck, why supply tubes, those will most likely be dumped too. Regarding the mark up, I did some research and in general I would agree, it would be difficult put together a cable for less than $100. However, there are medical grade power cords available for about 20 to 25$ from brands such as Volex or Qualtek. However, they are only available in 14AWG to 18AWG with 15amp IEC connectors. 12AWG comes with 20amp connector. So for most audio components to you would be stuck with 14AWG. So it would appear that cables such as the Venom 3 probably do over a good value. |
Very good post Ralph, interesting to say the least, Oh, by the way, Back in the late 90s, I rented many, many power cords from the cable company that retailed for lots of money, This was for a krell FPB 200, all of them sounded way worse than the stock Beldin Power cord that came with the amp, However, This is 2014, and I decided to try power cords once again, To my suprise, This power cord I have works well, and sounds great, I am sure there is better, But man, at what cost!, cheers to you Ralph. |
If a simple power cords can improve the quality of sound to the extent that it warrants its exorbitant price tag, why would you not (as a designer and seller of amplifiers) sell your amplifier straight out of the box with such a power cord. The problem is that there is a very good chance that the power cord will be dumped in favor of another. This is why we have always had IEC connections on our products, so it is possible to audition power cords. FWIW, on our MA-2 we actually have 2 separate AC circuits, using 2 power cords. This was done to minimize the effects of the AC wiring both inside and outside the amplifier. That feature was designed into the amp in 1990. The power cord is never being used as a filter BTW. I can only describe that idea as mythology. Regarding the readings that Shunyata had in that article, I think it would be very interesting to test some common cords on there, like certain models of Belden. I think that heavy gauge is usually a good place to start- install some decent connectors and you are usually well on your way. However if you think about it, just doing that and selling it at a normal markup will result in a power cord that costs at least $150.00- maybe more like $200... |
Audiolabyrinth, if you are referring to your Tara Labs Cobalt, I think you are confused. It uses 60 runs of a smaller wire to make 10 AWG, not 60 runs of 10 AWG. It would be impossible to terminate 60 runs of 10 AWG to the Cobalt's connectors. Also, it would be much larger and extremely difficult to bend, and as Atmasphere stated, required by law to be flexible. |
The # 1 rule for more marginal audio tweaks is always ask "why?". It works in life in general the same way. There should be some good reason to try anything, especially an expensive piece of technology. Any technical gadget worth its salt is designed a particular way for a specific purpose. If it is not, or if it might be but nobody can tell you why, just move on to clearer waters. One or two people saying "this is what I heard" is NOT a good reason, even if somehow it could be determined that they did in fact hear what they relate. Its a data point that means something, but relatively little alone in teh big picture. The question is always why does something do what it claims to do. Even an unsubstantiated theory on why is better than nothing, which is what one might end up often getting with this stuff. If even the maker cannot provide a good answer, then best to just move on until someone can. You'll probably end up in a happier place sooner and for less money. |
. Nick_sr, thank you very much for saying so eloquently exactly what I've been thinking for at least ten years. I paid $10k for an excellent tube preamp. For the life of me, I cannot wrap my head around a $10k power cord...or a $5k power cord...or a ...$3k power cord... Come on! $5k for a power cord?? . |
Hi Audiolabyrinth It depends on your tube amplifier you want to try the tube rolling or power cord swapping with. I have a Jolida JD-502P tube amplifier and when I spoke to Jolida they told me the change that made the most difference sound wise was rolling with 12AX7 tubes. A buddy of mine who has a different amplifier found power tube rolling and a power cord change improved the sound in his system. I say call the maker of your tube amp to see and then experiment on your own. |
Two different tweaks, each with potential to change the sound in different ways. Which is better or does more is likely to vary case to case. In general, performance of tubes CAN vary more widely, from high performance to dead and everything in between. Power cords are more durable and less problematic in practice. |
