No thoughts from anybody?
Best DAC for my situation...Read on!
So thoughts and opinions please.
What I have and my idea.
Oppo 105D and Bluesound Vault 2 feeding into McIntosh C48 preamp.
I chose the C48 because it is a nice complete all in one box solution, headphone amp, mm and mc phono amp, lots of analog inputs with 2 sets of xlr inputs AND 5 total digital inputs.
Now I have both the Oppo and the vault connected by analog and digital inputs to the C48 so I can compare modes pretty instantly and I have to admit both cases the analog sounds better.
Which makes me wonder if the C48, although a great all in one solution may be the hold up as far as the DAC performance is concerned.
What I was considering as a trial is a seperate DAC that can handle the digital signals from the units and then output the analog signal via xlr preferably, back to the C48.
At this stage I have no intention of getting rid of the C48 as I really like the analog signal SQ as well as the headphone performance.
Any good suggestions in the range of $2000 used or am I really not going to see much improvement at that price range over the C48 capability?
What I have and my idea.
Oppo 105D and Bluesound Vault 2 feeding into McIntosh C48 preamp.
I chose the C48 because it is a nice complete all in one box solution, headphone amp, mm and mc phono amp, lots of analog inputs with 2 sets of xlr inputs AND 5 total digital inputs.
Now I have both the Oppo and the vault connected by analog and digital inputs to the C48 so I can compare modes pretty instantly and I have to admit both cases the analog sounds better.
Which makes me wonder if the C48, although a great all in one solution may be the hold up as far as the DAC performance is concerned.
What I was considering as a trial is a seperate DAC that can handle the digital signals from the units and then output the analog signal via xlr preferably, back to the C48.
At this stage I have no intention of getting rid of the C48 as I really like the analog signal SQ as well as the headphone performance.
Any good suggestions in the range of $2000 used or am I really not going to see much improvement at that price range over the C48 capability?
69 responses Add your response
Bringing this back to the top as looking for more information as plans and equipment have changed a fair bit, whats new! I am looking for either a DAC that has 3 analog inputs( one pair balanced) OR a preamp that has a great DAC section . I have a few in mind but know nothing of them and obviously there may be many more. Mytek Manhattan PS Audio Stellar Gain Cell NAD M12 Simaudio 350 DP Any others and has anybody direct experience with any of these? Thank you |
I have not heard every DAC, but have yet to hear one that sounds the same with a cheap cable versus an expensive cable, USB or S/PDIF, or when using different sources. Some other manufacturers also claim zero jitter. This is impossible. I intentionally designed my own Overdrive SE/SX so it does not reclock the data coming in on I2S or S/PDIF. This allows me to hear the effects of lower jitter sources. Critical to designing outboard network Renderers like my Interchange or outboard USB converters like my Off-Ramp. I still sell the Synchro-Mesh reclocker and it’s even improved now. Interestingly, I am not able to change the sonics with the Synchro-Mesh with different sources or cables. It does appear to be immune to incoming jitter, so I know it’s possible given the right design and implementation. Steve N.’ Empirical Audio |
@mesch Absolutely none at all Every single one including some pretty old well played ones. Only "issue" was about 4 cds of very old and obscure British issue nature did not get correct metadata. Easily and quickly fixed by accessing the vault hard drive from my pc and using mp3tag to fix. That's it, takes about 7 minutes average to rip a CD to flac or wav files. For my requirements it was the best solution and the sq via coax digital output with a Nordost silver shadow cable is better than the original CD. I can give the unit a solid 100% recommendation. |
After a lot of hours of playtime I must report to being very happy with current setup. Exogal Comet Plus dac/preamp BAT VK600SE power amp Bluesound Vault 2 Wilson Witt speakers All analog interconnects are Nordost Heimdal All digital interconnects are Nordost Silver Shadow SR Black fuses in the power amp and Comet ps. SQ? Very rich and detailed with tremendous mid bass energy and vocals to die for, just right for my rock music bent. However I listened last night to Joe Bonamassa acoustic live at Carnegie Hall and it sent me to heaven, the strings were just liquid and the whole album passed without me moving an inch from my seating position! Now finishing upgrading the vinyl side but that is dealt with elsewhere |
@audioengr "IMO, there is no such thing as a jitter immune DAC. Never heard one, never tested one that proved to be. It’s the cable. Therefore, I submit that the jitter of the source ALWAYS be considered important. Steve N. Empirical Audio" So presumably you also dispute certain manufacturers claims and test results and also Stereophile independent test results on several DACs. Do you still sell reclocking jitter reduction solutions? |
Just a quick update Received my Exogal Comet Plus on Saturday which I stole for $1000 right here on Agon in as new condition, never even been plugged in! So obviously it still needs a lot of burn in time but initial impressions are very favourable. Using it right now as the main preamp in the system feeding the power amp direct and I like what I hear. Mostly listened to Tidal and my own ripped music via the Vault 2 over digital coax and very good imaging and very tight bass control. One band in particular, A Perfect Circle, has some very deep, powerful bass lines and on the old combo I could not help but feel they came over as just a tad bloated. Not with this combo, very strong and deep but crisp and well defined. To replace the phono section on the c48, I actually bought a used Cambridge Audio Azur 551 simply because it was for sale on my local CL...lol. However cheap maybe but even vinyl sounds improved being very well defined in the lower registers and excellent on piano and acoustic guitar and vocals. As I said, early days but it is looking good so far. |
The only way I would replace the Oppo 105 would be with the newest UD 205. In my opinion it is the most complete digital preamp/DAC in the market right now. You get all the usual digital connections (usb,coax,optical) plus hdmi, and ARC (adds up as many hdmis your tv has). You also get XLRs as you know, and now Roon certified! Save the money you’d put on a more expensive DAC, get the Roon lifetime subscription with the Oppo 205 and never look back :) |
Shadorne wrote:
IMO, there is no such thing as a jitter immune DAC. Never heard one, never tested one that proved to be. It's the cable. Therefore, I submit that the jitter of the source ALWAYS be considered important. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
Completely agree shadorne. :) The plethora of gizmos to address issues with USB transmission is a glaring example of adding band aids in an attempt to address endemic weaknesses of the technology as well as in component design/implementation, but I think there is more to digital cable influence than that. Re: the influence of different digital cables on sound quality, as I think you have said before, this has a lot to do with the quality of the particular component’s input design and the clock implementation. Perhaps most sensitive is the component’s USB input design/implementation (vs S/PDIF or AES/EBU) as there are more potential demons to conquer with USB data transmission. Overcoming potential noise issues with USB’s unique use of the 5V power lead in the same cable/connector interface is a challenge with USB and also that most USB designs are asynchronous, thus depending on the data transmission integrity of the source and the cable to avoid data loss that impedes the DAC’s analog reconstruction process. Maybe completely jitter related as you say a lot but I am not convinced that there is not more to it than jitter. Things like impedance match/mismatch, RF/EMI rejection and signal isolation to eliminate noise riding on the signal, etc. Anyway, very nice to agree on a balance of reasoning and listening as the superior path to better results. Dave |
Dave, I agree. Reasoning is a guide only on how to approach something. Reasoning can get you out of a lot of rabbit holes - For example, why do some DACs sound terrible with one digital cable but better with another. Is it the cable? Is it the DAC? Reasoning says that bit perfect data into a jitter immune DAC should not be affected by the cable unless the DAC has build and design issues. However, what sound is preferred is a personal judgement that the listener must make. So I propose Reasoning AND Listening is the only way to know. Without both you can get stuck in a silly rabbit hole of mediocrity with a bunch of unecessary band aids trying to resolve equipment component issues and living in denial that a high $$$$$ item MUST work perfectly because the king of audio design built it (appeal to authority rather than reasoning). |
@uberwaltz Check out this plot (Fig 13) why you should always run line level preamp devices north of 12 oclock (when playing loud) and why you should not string multiple preamps together. https://www.stereophile.com/content/benchmark-dac3-hgc-da-preamplifier-headphone-amplifier-measureme... The measurements from JA indicate to me that the DAC3 is an excellent preamp (better than your C48) and that it is best to use this DAC directly into a power amplifier using the balanced outputs and with a jumper pad precision resistor attenuation setting at a level such that you are listening with the volume between 10 and 3 oclock. |
I am thinking a used Bryston BDA-1 might be a good mate for your C48. They come up for sale used here often (as the USB input is substandard) and if it doesn't work out you could resell it for little to no loss. It doesn't have volume control, however has many inputs and a quality power supply and output stage. |
You might also look at Play Back Designs DAC’s. See: http://www.playbackdesigns.com i believe they have the connections you are looking for but I do not know their price. It is certainly worth a look. |
@hgeifman At present I have a very short list of two, both from prior suggestions in this thread One is the Benchmark dac3 the other is the Mytek Brooklyn. Both are about $1995 brand new and with 30 day free trial. Still looking and hearing opinions but it may boil down to one of those and give it an extended test run, not much to lose bar return shipping. |
@uberwaltz What about the Mytek Brooklyn DAC? DIGITAL INPUTS: USB2 Class2 (OSX, Linux driverless, all formats), AES/EBU (PCM up to 192k, up to DSD64 DOP), 2x S/PDIF (PCM up to 192k, up to DSD64 DOP), Toslink/ADAT 2x S/PDIF (PCM up to 192k, up to DSD64 DOP), SDIF3 DSD up to DSD256. If not, Google DAC with two digital inputs. Sent from my iPhone 7 |
+1 Ayre Codex DAC. I own the Ayre Codex DAC and it is outstanding and highly recommended (new or used). It has great performance and can be used as either a preamp/DAC or DAC only. Please see: https://www.ayre.com/codex.htm |
@willemj I agree with you but with with a caveat: not all line level equipment has high quality output - so I would restrict my choice to go without a preamp only when using a very high quality DAC with excellent and powerful output circuits. Some power amplifiers and long cable runs may introduce a challenging load to a cheap line level DAC output and result in signal degradation (usually a loss of dynamics). So a preamp is just like an audio mixer in the pro music world - it buffers the line level signal by presenting a high impedance easy load and then has a powerful output that can often drive a more difficult load. @uberwaltz Schiit is not in the same ball park or league as Mytek and Benchmark and Bricasti and Bryston and a few others (lots of choice - Stereophile A and A+ is a good start) |
Yes you can choose to use a favorite pre-amp as a personal preference tone control or not. Clean and accurate alone does not always cut it for all ears. Benchmark HDR DACs are in fact DACs built into a good quality pre-amp. You can swtich between both analog and digital inputs. No phono pre-amp though with BEnchmark. You have to add that still if needed. I have a Bel Canto C5i digital integrated. It truly has it all. Digital, line level and phono inputs, 60w/ch. The most versatile and best sounding single device I have ever owned. If it did not work out, teh BEnchmark was next on the list but I have other Bel Canto amps that are top notch and I decided to give everything in a single small box a try first. Very glad I did! |
There are definitely differences between DACs. Of course there are some DACs that sound exactly the same. You are looking at a device that generates analog waveforms. They will not all do it the same way. The McIntosh preamp is going to be somewhat laid back, so there is the possibility that you may not have the resolution to hear differences between some DAC models. |
The traditional purpose of a pre amplifier was to bring the different output levels of analogue sources to the same level (and add the massive RIAA equalization required by the phono input), to allow you to switch between these sources, to use tone and balance controls, and to
control volume. However, these days you do not necessarily need them anymore. Typical input sensitivity of a hifi power amplifier is now 2V, and typical cd red book standard output of a digital source is also 2V. So what does one still need? Apart from tone and balance controls which you could also and better do with a mini DSP, you only need a volume control and a switch between inputs. In a very basic system such as the system in my study, with just a computer plus ODAC usb DAC as a source, all I needed with my QUAD 405-2 power amplifier was a volume control like the Emotiva Control Freak. With more digital sources like a basic streamer, a disc player, a tv, and perhaps a computer, one would need a DAC with multiple inputs and preferably a volume control. Examples of such units would be the Marantz HD DAC1, the Pioneer U-05, or various Benchmark DACs. Such DACs are in effect the modern incarnation of the traditional pre amplifier. Inserting a traditional pre amp after such DACs just adds distortion, noise etc. Pre amplifiers can only degrade the sound. And they are a waste of money. |
The C48 preamp is around 100dB S/N. I think you will find the Mytek is closer to 120 dB. This is probably due to the very quiet switched Mode power supply versus the Mcintosh traditional linear one. So it is possible that the C48 would dumb down the Mytek performance if it were in the audio chain. It is entirely possible that performance of many of the Class A or Class A+ DACs are being compromised by typical preamp performance... |
uber, Sounds good. Up to recently, I recall that you were set on a one-box solution? Since you brought an external DAC into the fold of consideration, I will give you my 2 cents. Having a MW SACD player and a pretty good DAC (Exogal Comet Plus)/Aurender N100H music server combo. I have fallen hopelessly addicted to the Aurender/Comet combo because streaming music from Tidal is so easy and the sound is pretty good. Also listening to hi-rez downloads from HDtracks, etc. ups the ante to excellent sound quality. I mean EXCELLENT sound quality. My MW5400ES still sounds better for critical listening, once the right tubes and umbilical/power cords are in place. Image palpability and soundstage size, depth, and layering are in another league. The intoxicating wetness and buttery even-order harmonics/richness of the tube sound can only be produced by tubes, simple as that. Friggin’ incredible dynamics and bass power/slam. Bye-bye grain and edginess. Music. My MW player only plays CD and SACD. Speaking of that, I was confused by your comment above, "However that only has an effect on Redbook CD playback." ??? Anything you play through your Oppo (CD, SACD, other digital input) and output from its analog outputs will benefit equally from the Modwright power supply, analog section, and tube output section. Bottom line: If you are planning to do a lot of streaming or need multiple digital inputs for using other sources, Keep your Oppo for other duties and invest the money in an Aurender/DAC-of-your choice combo. Way excellent streaming with the Aurender. So easy to build custom playlists. If you do not plan to predominately listen via Tidal (I think the Oppo can do streaming via its USB input??), the Modwright mod to your Oppo is the way to go for ultimate digital sound quality IMO unless you get into the $$$ DACs. Dave |
Of course Dave, I have not totally ruled out replacing the OPPO with a modwright OPPO yet. However that only has an effect on Redbook CD replay. Moving to a better DAC should improve CD replay, my ripped collection and Tidal replay so in theory I should get a broader music improvement on spending money on a better DAC. Mind it was a lot easier years ago when I was much poorer....lol. That made choices easy.....if it wasn't broke then don't fix it! |
Dave You are exactly right and that would be the plan. Fortunately the C48 has 2 pairs of xlr inputs so I can compare say the oppo dac signal to the c48 and the "whatever" dac signal to the c48 both via xlr. And the same with the vault, compare single ended direct from the vault to the c48 and same with the "whatever" dac. Then I can remove the c48 and try the " whatever" dac direct into my BAT. I am blessed in that 2k is not a huge outlay at my stage of life and the mytek and benchmark have a 30 day free trial. Plenty enough for me to a lot of serious comparisons. Tbh it will take something special to make me part with the c48 |
The Benchmark DAC has excellent output and excellent volume control especially the XLR outputs which are very powerful. So powerful you may have to install the internal jumper resistors to reduce the output to an acceptalble level for your power amp.The analog circuitry is all exceptionally low noise as the specs are industry leading. So I would recommend taking the C48 out of the signal path not because it isn’t a good preamp but simply because every stage adds noise to the signal - shortest paths are best. And a good phono amp might be an upgrade in and of itself. Alternatively a Mytek Brooklyn DAC has a built in phono and MQA decoding! There is not so much to choose between in terms of the very high audio quality in many of the latest DACs so a choice based on features may be more cost effective. |
