@in_shore , so you kept your streamer? The Pro-Ject is over $3000 without the upgraded power supply. I would like to buy one, but that is outside my budget by $1000. Love to try one. I understand Underwood does not allow returns or trial? That is what his site says?
Better CD Sound: The Search
Went Big into Vinyl last 2 years, then re-discovered my many CD’s, mixing it up plenty now.
I continue to try and find a CD Player with better sound than my existing cheapo Sony Changer that surprisingly keeps on keeping on.
I am hoping recent upgrades to the system will more readily reveal differences:
99.9999 copper speaker wires and interconnects, locking rca connectors, mx110z tube tuner/preamp overhaul by Audio Classics; cayin a88t bias by VAS; 16 ohm L-Pads replacing 8 ohm pots; and finally a I bought a sound meter to balance/refine the speaker’s L-Pads (it ain’t easy) for the best sound ever.
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CD Quest So Far:
I want dual processors, go used to keep cost down, even consider older vintage.
1. my Onkyo Grand Integra (DX-7500 I think), fixed the damn drawer opening problem several times.
2. This cheapo Sony Changer given to me, eh, use if for parties, why not.
surprisingly sounded as good as the Onkyo to me and friends, gave the annoying Onkyo away.
3. tried used Oppo 83 Video Player for it’s audio
Laser was weak, ’no disc’, found it is a common problem with heavily used lasers. Back it went
4. lightly used Oppo 105. Everything worked, but didn’t sound better than the Sony. Oppo is big, single, expensive, not sellers fault, so I sold it myself rather than return it, lost $205. on that attempt.
5. ’new original stock’ KLH (made by?). played a few discs, then the discs started mis-tracking on discs I know are ok.
found small black bits clinging to the surface in the area of the problems (cds play from the inside out, just guess how far out). Turned out, the belt(s) were dried out, thus when put into motion after years of storage (where?), they shed bits of rubber. Back it went, full refund including return shipping. never compared it to the Sony’s sound
6. Resolved: if vintage, make sure belts are available, get a low price, open it up when it arrives, watch it move ... use, replace belts, return as last choice.
7. Just Bought Two, in transit, One Single; One 6 Disc Changer. (both with oem remotes and power cords, most for sale are missing).
a. Denon DVD-2910 Single Player (big dent on the top. $52. del’d, eBay) (crutchfield keeps old info on their site)
https://www.crutchfield.com/S-6TIPMQKBMUZ/p_033DV2910B/Denon-DVD-2910-Black.html
b. Onkyo Integra CDC-3.4 six disc changer (open box/demo) ($51. delivered) (bserplus.com)
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_164CDC34/Integra-CDC-3-4.html
c. a bag of belts. because I will be keeping something, and I have other old stuff with belts
https://www.ebay.com/itm/334135204014
d. spare rare OEM remote for Integra 3.4, eBay
Keeping My Ears Crossed!
I continue to try and find a CD Player with better sound than my existing cheapo Sony Changer that surprisingly keeps on keeping on.
I am hoping recent upgrades to the system will more readily reveal differences:
99.9999 copper speaker wires and interconnects, locking rca connectors, mx110z tube tuner/preamp overhaul by Audio Classics; cayin a88t bias by VAS; 16 ohm L-Pads replacing 8 ohm pots; and finally a I bought a sound meter to balance/refine the speaker’s L-Pads (it ain’t easy) for the best sound ever.
.....................................
CD Quest So Far:
I want dual processors, go used to keep cost down, even consider older vintage.
1. my Onkyo Grand Integra (DX-7500 I think), fixed the damn drawer opening problem several times.
2. This cheapo Sony Changer given to me, eh, use if for parties, why not.
surprisingly sounded as good as the Onkyo to me and friends, gave the annoying Onkyo away.
3. tried used Oppo 83 Video Player for it’s audio
Laser was weak, ’no disc’, found it is a common problem with heavily used lasers. Back it went
4. lightly used Oppo 105. Everything worked, but didn’t sound better than the Sony. Oppo is big, single, expensive, not sellers fault, so I sold it myself rather than return it, lost $205. on that attempt.
5. ’new original stock’ KLH (made by?). played a few discs, then the discs started mis-tracking on discs I know are ok.
found small black bits clinging to the surface in the area of the problems (cds play from the inside out, just guess how far out). Turned out, the belt(s) were dried out, thus when put into motion after years of storage (where?), they shed bits of rubber. Back it went, full refund including return shipping. never compared it to the Sony’s sound
6. Resolved: if vintage, make sure belts are available, get a low price, open it up when it arrives, watch it move ... use, replace belts, return as last choice.
7. Just Bought Two, in transit, One Single; One 6 Disc Changer. (both with oem remotes and power cords, most for sale are missing).
a. Denon DVD-2910 Single Player (big dent on the top. $52. del’d, eBay) (crutchfield keeps old info on their site)
https://www.crutchfield.com/S-6TIPMQKBMUZ/p_033DV2910B/Denon-DVD-2910-Black.html
b. Onkyo Integra CDC-3.4 six disc changer (open box/demo) ($51. delivered) (bserplus.com)
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_164CDC34/Integra-CDC-3-4.html
c. a bag of belts. because I will be keeping something, and I have other old stuff with belts
https://www.ebay.com/itm/334135204014
d. spare rare OEM remote for Integra 3.4, eBay
Keeping My Ears Crossed!
169 responses Add your response
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****** Integra CDC-3.4, Mark 2 ******** It’s BY FAR the WINNER! Last night I realized: It’s like I was given more than 4K new CDs free with the unit. The distinctness I described above just adds up in so many ways. It’s taken me a few years to get here, I am so glad I didn’t give up. I prowled the small clubs in NJ and NYC twice a week for live music for over 20 years. Yesterday I listened to many musicians/singers I have seen live and also many local musicians I know well. I couldn’t be happier. A great example, final one last night, is Willie Nelson, Teatro Album. One of my favorites, surprisingly better. New respect for Daniel Lanois and all the performers. .................................................. Denon 2910. Close but no Cigar. Like the Integra it is more distinct than the Sony, however it’s salad of dual burr brown dacs and Denon’s mix of additives: over sampling, clock, jitter, .... produces a slight brightness compared to the Integra. i.e. Emmylou Harris’s voice, Jose Feliciano strings, Melissa Etheridge, Tierney Sutton .... high frequency piano and violin notes, like many good individual things adding up, here that very slight aspect adds up. Others may love it. I have wide dispersion horn tweeters, just balanced via sound meter and new L-Pads, so, combined with the Denon’s excellent distinctness, these speakers reveal this slight brightness more than some speakers/systems/rooms might. It may sound terrific thru another system/speakers/space, the Integra could be a bit dull compared to the Denon in that situation. ................................................ I am done, and will keep my eye out for another Integra. MARK 2. I never heard mark 1, so I can only say great things about my Mark 2. How to know: It uses remote control rc-778c, ’squarer’ outside corners, and has a suffix letter M after the serial #. Newer date made is shown on serial number tag is also a hint. Original (unidentified as Mark 1) use remote rc-553c, same key layout, but rounded outside corners customer service should be able to tell you from the serial #
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SACD: Quieter Noise Floor is about it " "Comparison with CDIn September 2007, the Audio Engineering Society published the results of a year-long trial, in which a range of subjects including professional recording engineers were asked to discern the difference between high-resolution audio sources (including SACD and DVD-Audio) and a compact disc audio (44.1 kHz/16 bit) conversion of the same source material under double-blind test conditions. Out of 554 trials, there were 276 correct answers, a 49.8% success rate corresponding almost exactly to the 50% that would have been expected by chance guessing alone.[38] When the level of the signal was elevated by 14 dB or more, the test subjects were able to detect the higher noise floor of the CD-quality loop easily." | |
I had the seller refund me the cost of the new laser, so it was: Fix it or Toss it. just found this on diyaudio.com, from moderator
"To all, I never thought about this point of view, at this point I suppose my trust that I could blindly fix it could be seen as arrogant by someone who knows what they are doing. Past successes encourage me, you don’t learn if you don’t try, and so many ’for parts’ units are out there.
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jafant, no, I got if from these people on eBay https://www.ebay.com/str/libertyelectronicsstore Finds and plays CD's readily. I cannot find the magic adjustment of the 2 allen screws that raise/lower/align the laser to get it to read SACD discs. I'm going to write the seller this am with questions. Both my Sony's, because they are DVD/Blu-Ray players, also play SACD. But the Integra sounds better, so what's the point? I never went big into SACD. I tried some purposely, didn't like having to concentrate to hear the difference, and found, when concentrating, some like Oscar Peterson piano have an un-naturally dead-quiet background. So out of nearly 5k CDs, less than a dozen specifically purchased as SACD, others simply came as hybrids. But still, to lose to a machine? I hate that. If I get it working, SACDs are the best!!!!
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The search is over! Came up with this one just the other night! Remove CD from jewel case. Holding the CD in both hands, firmly press both thumbs into the center hole. Now this is the most important part- QUICKLY press and pull sharp as you can until the CD breaks. The sound you hear right at the moment it snaps in two is the best sound you will ever get from CD. So real, so lifelike, you won't believe. | |
Denon 2910 update: new laser arrived; surprise: must de-solder two 'anti-static' blobs of solder. did it, whew. switched lasers, got it working. Playing CDs, but not SACD yet, still twiddling with the allen key adjusters that control the height/alignment of the laser. I found this 3 part video, great help https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to8ojRiBOag | |
Oh Happy Day, Integra CDC-3.4 6 disc changer arrived, like new, perfect, and, despite my ’doubtful’ expectation bias: FINALLY one that sounds preferable to my Sony. I highly recommend the sound of this with it’s dual Wolfson processors and all of Onkyo/Integra’s tricks applied. How to describe the difference: Like my AT33PTG/II cartridge, compared to any cartridge with less tight channel balance, EVERYTHING is a speck more distinct. Not bright, not sharp, a very thin veil removed allowing refined clarity. Imaging is the same width, but within that, main vocal, backup singers, specific musicians, simultaneously more precise. A small improvement to EVERYTHING, is a LOT!!! ................................................. I’ve been refining my speaker’s L-Pads with a tripod/sound meter the last 2 weeks, listening to and actively aware of dozens of favorite and revealing CD’s. Getting the L to match the R, and juicing the mid horn and tweeter horn up/dn for +/- db working together is not easy but a great tool to adjust for their current listening position. Refined my toe-in also with the meter. The improvements clearly heard via the existing Sony right up to comparison yesterday. Copies of CD’s, pre-adjust volume match, remote switching of inputs made comparison nearly instant. .................................... Kate Wolf, Give Yourself to Love, volume 2, track 8: Pacheco/Redtail Hawk. They get going, then 3 strings l/c/r. (something like mandolin/guitar/fiddle). The more distinct center is the first thing you notice right away, then the more distinct imaging (same location) of l & r instruments. Casandra Wilson, Blue Light Till Dawn, her version of Tupelo Honey, any track, she has wonderful musicians. Eurythmics; Blue Nile; Friday Night in San Francisco 3 guitarists; Melody Gardot; Sade; Eva Cassidy; Nora Jones, Amos Lee; Lyle Lovett; Buddy Guy; Oscar Peterson, Rising Appalachia’ Larkin Poe; Melissa Etheridge, Abby Lincoln ..... Next: compare something unfamiliar. Tierney Sutton. I have and love a couple of her CD’s, just bought this one: The Sting Variations. Ever notice, some bands, like Bad Company are masters of reducing the musician’s volume when Paul Rodgers is singing, right back up, down again, one of the reasons his amazing voice and their songs are so well understood. Tierney: her musicians do not lower their volume when she sings. Clarity of her voice within the music is a speck easier to understand than with the Sony. I could go on. ......................................... Soooo: at this point, with all the improvements and refinements: would I have heard difference/preference from the Oppo 105? Possibly. ....................................... Features/Light on the Tray when Loading/smaller remote, quieter mechanism .......................................... Next: compare the sets of matching LPs to CD’s, I bet the difference narrows. | |
@tvad, My DAC is the Yamamoto YDA -01a , High Fidelity CT-1 Ultimate digital cable (RCA) coaxial input. I added Duelund CAST Copper foil output coupling capacitors about 7 years ago(Thanks for that recommendation back then Bill (@grannyring). I still appreciate that to this day👍. @grannyring, A keeper for certain . Straight out of the shipping box (BTW very well double boxed with dense high quality foam inserts) into the audio system. You could hear it steadily improve within the first 30-45 minutes. Bill, you would love and really appreciate the Pro-Ject. Supremely organic with such ease and liquidity. The tonality of acoustic instruments is on the bullseye. Charles | |
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@in_shore , I received my Pro-Ject CD BOX RS2 transport today. I'll get right to the point, how could you return this unit for sake of mere convenience? It's simply stunning! Utterly musical, completely emotionally engaging music reproduction and simultaneously 'highly ' resolved and nuanced. It was comments from you, @wig, @bigkidz and others that caught my attention. As good (Very good) as my trusted P.S. Audio PWT sounds, the RS2 is a class above. Simply thoroughly organic, dynamic and absolutely involving. The crew at Stream Unlimited who developed this new CD Pro-8 CD drive are truly experts. Redbook CD is fantastic with high quality transport and DAC. With the latest CD drive mechanism I expected heighten resolution/detail. The fluidity, superb harmonics and tonality, musical flow and organic character are the big surprise. One last observation, the presentation is exceptionally three-dimensional and very open. In_shore how could you?😊 Charles | |
jafant, Know anyone near Kenwood, CA with $35.? https://www.ebay.com/itm/265274447595?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=711-53200-19255-0&campid=533... | |
I have to disagree, they move these factories around overnight, it's up to the brand to monitor quality control, reputation, and warranty. My Cayin A88T is MIC, and my Sony Cameras are MIC. Excellent build quality. Sony rx100m1 back in late 2012, initial batch MIJ had dust on sensor problems, they moved production to China, problem disappeared. The Integra CDC-3.4 has a 3 year P&L warranty, no matter where it is made. That means mine is still under warranty. (not transferrable). I will ask seller, original purchaser, to keep the receipt, help me if problem occurs before 3 yrs. | |
My Sony to Beat: DVP-NC80V (from crutchfield’s old info) One converter for SACD and a separate One for CD?
I read that players do NOT output SACD data from their digital outs, only redbook CD out. not sure if that has changed | |
@grannyring, Thanks for sharing your listening comparison experience. I would not have expected a different outcome from you. My contention has been for some time that either a digital server or CD transport can provide excellent sound quality in one’s audio system. Multiple factors can affect the results one way or the other. Most important I believe is the quality of the chosen hardware/component. I thought you would happy with a used P.S. Audio PWT as it is a terrific CD transport that’s stood the test of time. Exceptional value purchased used. As I’ve mentioned previously mine is still serving me very well after 9 years of ownership. The Pro-Ject CD BOX RS2 transport has really captured my attention and I should receive it sometime this week. I’m needless to say very curious as to how it will perform compared to the trusty and reliable PWT. @grannyring you have proven to yourself happiness can be achieved with either front end approach. Charles | |
I found an interesting combination. Looking for a decent reasonably priced CD/DAC player with a COAX S/PDIF in, that I could us as an upgrade in sound with my old Denon 5 disc player, I picked up a good buy on a used Cambridge Audio Asur 840C. Many reviews gave it high marks for being musical and organic while still presenting a good amount of clarity and detail - what I was looking for. My goal was to have a good sounding single play CDP for serious listening, while keeping the convince of a 5 disc changer for late night, more casual listening. As I expected - the Cambridge, by its self, was a sonic step above the old Denon DCM 440, 5 disc player but what I didn't expect was how good the Denon would sound running from its Dig. Out into the 840's DAC. Surprising, to say the least - the sound of the Denon/Cambridge combo (wife agrees) is better than either by itself and is, in fact, Very Good. A win-win - the convince of a 5 disc changer for long nights of listening and great sound.....Jim. | |
Here is the post I promised to share comparing CD spinning to a streamer/server digital front end. I purchased the very good PS Audio PWT transport two weeks ago because I have been hearing folks say CD spinning sounds much better than a server. So I have a very nice Hijiri Nogami power cord on the transport and the top of the line Hijiri Million Dollar digital cable. I have been comparing the sound to my Innuos Zenith 3 server. I had to find out for myself if CD spinning is still that far ahead. The answer is not universal or easy. It depends and that is now clear to me. My Innuos Zenith is fed by a Network Acoustics ENO filter, two ENO ethernet cables, an English Electric Switch 8 powered by a top notch LPS and a modem/router powered my a top notch LPS. I have a Tchernov Reference USB cable between the Mojo Evo and Zenith. I have been conducting listening tests carefully listening for differences and preferences. Here is my conclusion based on my system as outlined above. - CD spinning sounds very, very similar to CDs ripped and played off the Zenith. Very close. I would give a slight edge in dimension to the CD spinner. Very slight. - Streaming Qobuz from Roon did not sound as good as the CD spinner. It depended on the Qobuz file quality however. Non - HD Qobuz files sounded the worst. HD Qobuz sounded much better, but still about 85% as good as the CD spinner. It sounded flat compared to CD spinning. - Using the new Innuos Sense instead of Roon makes things much closer to CD spinning. Roon does not sound as good as the new Sense software from Innuos. Frankly, Sense is much better sounding at the date of this posting. So streaming HD Qobuz files through Innuos Sense is damn close to the CD spinner. Within 5%. Innuos Sense is coming out with an update next week that is said to sound some 10% better according to beta testers. This will put HD Qobuz files and CD rips on par with CD spinning in my rig. What’s important to remember here is everything matters when it comes to streaming and playing files off a server. Everything matters! The music playback software used is also critical. Roon is no match to Sense sonically as of today. However, Roon continues to improve their sound quality as does Sense. This space is moving fast folks with sound quality improvements coming monthly! Network Acoustics has some new ethernet filters and switches coming that will improve streaming sound quality even more. No easy or general answer to the question of does CD spinning or streaming/server sound better. Cannot make any broad brush conclusions as it just depends. Too many options, products and variables are at play. In addition, the streaming/server improvements are coming at a very fast rate. Innuos Sense is just one example. Going from Roon to Sense has been a sonic revelation for many of us. Both continue to improve sound quality and that is great news for sure. Depending on how your system’s digital front end is set up CD spinning may sound much better than a server or it may not. The only way to know is to compare for yourself in your own system. Just FAR too many variables at play for the one simple answer. | |
I earlier posted I thought I had read that PS Audio has extended the sale price on the PST till the end of the year. I believe now I was wrong on this. I happened to look at PS Audio site on this item, but sale is no longer shown. In looking at the forum where I had thought I had seen the extension, it appears I misread and the end of year posting referred to trial period. My apologies to any who may have been affected by my incorrect info. | |
I found this funny " Sony When it comes to CD players Sony is on a roll, a host of excellent players have been emanating from the company in the last few years especially in the lower reaches of the market, and interestingly the company has decided to have many of their mid range models different from market to market in a bid to make their product more acceptable locally. There has noticeably been a range of players intended for the UK market that have been designed to deliver the dry and flat sound that the English love so much (apparently the breed only listens to chamber music and the Smiths or equivalent)." | |
denny, thanks for the kind offer, did you mean acoustic research or audio research? Audio Research CD-1 is too big for me. I'll see if I succeed with replacing the Denon's laser. New laser for Audio Research CD-1 is available. https://www.ebay.com/itm/153333336238?hash=item23b36108ae:g:4b8AAOSw7aBVIAb4 I found this site with info about discontinued CD players http://audiotools.com/en_cd_v_a.html | |
Update: Denon New Laser shipped, be here next tuesday. ............................................ Integra: Fraud, glad Paypal gave me my money back. The tracking number and tracking updates show your town and zip code, but not your name or street address. String of updates: DHL to USPS to .. final update says: delivered 2:29pm front door. Nothing there, our postman happened to be next door, he doesn’t have it and never saw a package for me at the PO. The package was delivered to a house 3 minutes away, I knocked on the door, that tracking # was for a small package of socks she ordered from a different company. Met some nice new neighbors, he’s a plumber, I have a project for the spring, hooray. It seems if a fraudster can scam a tracking number of anything to be delivered in your zip code, then they can claim it was delivered. Normally people could not find out what and where the wrong tracking number was for, thus never be able to prove anything. They wrote me saying their system has a problem, please withdraw my action via PayPal. Instead I told them what I knew and asked them where my item is. .................................. Found and bought an Integra CDC-3.4 made in May 2019. | |
henry53, mksun, billzame, and sandthemall mentioned CD players/transports made by Audiolab in this thread. On another thread I mentioned that I replaced some audio equipment this last summer, and when I did that I purchased four Audiolab components:
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Seller gave me the credit and I just ordered the Denon 2910 laser, it's in Florida, be here by the 9th, possibly sooner. Wish me luck! Meanwhile my office computer fan went bad. Luckily I have identical computer in HT (idle since TV's got smart), switched fan, found a replacement fan, be here by the 9th What else is on the verge? | |
jafant I can only work on the mechanical: parts, belts, brakes, tension adjustments, renew lubrication that has turned to glue ... Not the electronics. I don't even know how to use my ancient Multi-Meter. I overhaul my Reel to Reel Tape Players, that sort of thing. I used parts from two non-working Mitsubishi LT-5V Vertical Turntables to have 1 winner and some spare parts. Both are in my office system shown here https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/9511 This Denon: I downloaded the service manual: I am confident I can disassemble, disconnect the ribbon cable and switch the laser assembly and get it back together. New lasers are also available for the Oppo 83, but the disassembly looked too complicated, so I returned it. This one, if I return it, it remains dead which is a shame. A smart man would return this Denon. Part of me wants to 'beat the system' or still 'win my bet' I suppose, and keep a good thing going. | |
DENON DVD-2910 Who warned me against used? Denon 2910 was ok for a day, got finicky, now won't read any disc, just like the Oppo 83 I had to return. Seems Laser is weak. Either a full refund (dispute with eBay will be needed), or, seller gives me a credit and I buy a new laser. https://www.ebay.com/itm/360432530832?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item53eb73f590:g:3HkAAOSwKrhVbYBu&... I have the tools and skill to change it, and do like keeping things going, AND it did sound good, soooo, the saga continues. | |
I got a great deal about 2 years ago on a close out of a new Luxman D-08. I’ve had many very good CD players over the years but nothing compares to this. The dac in this player is better than any stand alone dac I have ever heard. When this player was first released it sold for $20,000 so I guess it should have a state of the art dac. CD’s now sound better than I could have ever imagined. |