Danoroo, There is a thread here, somewhere, where Douglas Schroeder (a reviewer) tried out a high end Van Alstine ABX Comparator Switchbox and it was like a cold bucket of water in the face as it was impossible to tell the difference between amps with levels properly matched but the kicker was the biggest difference was between cables. It was very easy for him to hear the differences. So use your ears and try out some within your budget and you'll find some that suits your needs. All the best, Nonoise |
"There is a thread here, somewhere, where Douglas Schroeder (a reviewer) tried out a high end Van Alstine ABX Comparator Switchbox and it was like a cold bucket of water in the face as it was impossible to tell the difference between amps with levels properly matched but the kicker was the biggest difference was between cables. It was very easy for him to hear the differences."
And people wonder why I don't trust audio reviews. So all our amps will sound the same if we match our levels? But our cables won't? No wonder people buy cables that cost more than their components. |
I expected such a response. We're all reviewers of some sort, no? What makes us, here, so special? I tried to find the thread here where he mentions it but couldn't. My memory wasn't as good as I thought so I went and dug up the article and after quite an exhaustive set up and conditioning, he could discern differences but they were slight. Repeatable but slight. There were enough clues to go on but how many here go to that length? I'm in no way going full Pete Aczel here but if you if you do match levels and don't clip the amp, the cables will make a bigger difference. It''s so easy to be an armchair warrior. All the best, Nonoise |
"09-12-15: Nonoise
I expected such a response.
We're all reviewers of some sort, no? What makes us, here, so special? I tried to find the thread here where he mentions it but couldn't."
It was one of the silliest I've ever heard. It makes no sense. Your minds already made up, so it would be a waste of time discussing the matter.
I'll make 1 quick point. I went over to his website and had a look at a few of his amp reviews. In his own reference system he has a $31,000 amp. And when he compares the differences in sound between them, they are anything but small or subtle.
Its the complete opposite of this.
"My memory wasn't as good as I thought so I went and dug up the article and after quite an exhaustive set up and conditioning, he could discern differences but they were slight. Repeatable but slight. There were enough clues to go on but how many here go to that length?"
Which is it? If the differences are so small, why buy a $31,000 amp? He's clearly not taking his own advice. |
I have a good deal of respect for Mr. Schroeder's reviews, and certainly for his sincerity. However, when a single isolated experiment yields results which fly in the face of both technical understanding and the overwhelming preponderance of reported experience-based belief, there are two possibilities:
1)The applicable technical understanding and reported experience-based belief are flawed, for reasons that are unexplained and probably unexplainable.
2)The experiment was flawed, for reasons that are unexplained and perhaps unexplainable.
Which is more likely?
Best regards,
-- Al
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Z, you're quickly becoming the resident crank, if not already. Hyperbole is your vessel. You're as over the top with knee jerk reactions as anyone I've seen. It must be nice up there on Olympus throwing those (oh so hurtful, my, my) thunderbolts of wisdom.
How you came to the conclusion that my mind was already made up is beyond me. Quoting someone to add perspective doesn't translate to a closed mind. It's just another perspective added to the mix (keep your options open).
Also, anyone can go to his website and see the many amps he's reviewed but the ABX comparator review came afterwards. I don't believe he's done an amp review since. There is a timeline here of sorts that would make it apparent to just about anyone who'd care to do a proper search.
About the two different amps he refers to here on A'gon (the thread I couldn't find) he ABX'd two different amps that I believe were from Wells Audio (the Akasha and Innamorata) and was sincerely puzzled as in sighted reviews he could discern a difference but when ABX'd, it was very difficult.
As for Al's thoughtful and considerate approach (something you could learn from), I believe both possibilities do apply. Nothing is absolute and quite difficult to reproduce in any reliable manner.
But I'll go so far as to say that based on my experience, if everything remains constant in your system and you only have one variable, cables will make a bigger difference than amps provided you listen at the same levels, staying within the limits of the amp. Not a harsh or hard to fathom concept, Z.
Also, if anyone can find that thread with Mr. Schroeder's contribution you'll see where I offered that maybe the ABX device was the equalizer and played an unintended role, which may add weight to my thinking that despite the coloring of the music by the comparator, the cables were able to get in the way of the music more than the amps could. Nothing here to go nuclear over, nothing to see here folk, move along.
All the best,
Nonoise |
"09-12-15: Nonoise
Z, you're quickly becoming the resident crank, if not already. Hyperbole is your vessel. You're as over the top with knee jerk reactions as anyone I've seen. It must be nice up there on Olympus throwing those (oh so hurtful, my, my) thunderbolts of wisdom."
I make no apologies for thinking and coming to conclusions that are different than yours, or anyone elses.
"How you came to the conclusion that my mind was already made up is beyond me. Quoting someone to add perspective doesn't translate to a closed mind. It's just another perspective added to the mix (keep your options open)."
I go by your words.
"I'm in no way going full Pete Aczel here but if you if you do match levels and don't clip the amp, the cables will make a bigger difference."
"Also, anyone can go to his website and see the many amps he's reviewed but the ABX comparator review came afterwards. I don't believe he's done an amp review since. There is a timeline here of sorts that would make it apparent to just about anyone who'd care to do a proper search."
You may want to take your own advice here and do another search. He did the ABX thing in April 2015. Heres an excerpt from an amp he reviewed in May 2015.
"Using the D’Agostino as an example of a component that makes an immediate impression in the best sense of the word, so does the Innamorata Signature, but in a very different way. So different in fact I had never really heard anything like it. No, the Wells Audio Innamorata Signature did not best the D’Agostino but it did reveal a bit of dryness in comparison. What the Innamorata has is a midrange and treble that is so creamy and liquid smooth without resulting in any darkness or muting. The overall effect is hard to describe. Textures are downright juicy, they are never harsh or overly bright. Horns in particular just pour out tone and texture. And vocals? Outstanding. Violin and Piano, two of the toughest instruments to get right are handled with such liquidity and proper tone, making for an incredibly seductive presentation.
The D’Agostino Momentum has a beguiling level of neutrality and resolution, particularly in the treble, resulting in every song unfolding into vast landscape to explore. There is simply more information passing through the D’Agostino. That said, the Wells Audio Innamorata Signature’s treble is so well integrated with the mid band making for a seamless presentation on par with the best, it leaves little on the table in the upper frequencies. Very sweet in tone, this is unapologetically beautiful sound. As for the comparison I have been making with the D’Agostino, I have not mentioned that it is nearly 5 times the price of the Innamorata Signature. As for choosing anything near the Innamorata’s price point I’m all over the Innamorata for center stage in my system."
I just don't see what kind of legitimate argument you can make after reading that. Like I said in my last post, this is the complete opposite of the claims made in the ABX test. Not only that, given that this review was published just a few weeks AFTER the ABX review, you would expect that experience to have at least some impact on his reviews going forward. Not 1 word is mentioned. |
Z, it's good to see you've toned it down quite a bit. Like I've already mentioned, the comparison he made was between two different Wells Audio amps and he found it very difficult to tell the difference between the two using the ABX comparator. It was on a thread here on A'gon not too long ago. It could very well be that he hears a difference between two different makes. I used this and this to cite his work after the ABX testing and can't locate any review of his on the D'Agostino Momentum amp as a formal review, let alone a comparison done with an ABX comparator. Were you citing from a show review? As for having any impact on his ability to review going forward, he does address it in the article on the ABX comparator: I believe the most seasoned listeners who concentrate to a potential orientation error could pass such ABX testing. Frank Van Alstine seems to concur that one can pass ABX Comparator testing with regularity, but it takes focussed concentration. In a noisier environment, or with distractions, even those caused by other listeners, I think the results could suffer significantly. I believe that's more than one word. What it will take is someone who can find the thread here on A'gon where he mentions the article and the quandary it left him in at the moment. It was in that thread where he mentioned how it was easier to hear differences between cables than amps. There's enough conventional wisdom on both sides of the debate to make it a moot point but let's let civility rule the day. All the best, Nonoise |
"I believe that's more than one word."
I was referring to the review he did on the Wells Audio amp on dagogo May 2015. If he had such a profound experience with the ABX tester he just reviewed in April 2015, I would expect to see it take part in any amp reviews he did from that point on. To not do so makes no sense. The Momentum review is there too, 12/14. |
My quote was from the very end of the articles on the ABX comparator. As I said, what he wrote in a thread here on A'gon went even further than the review and was what I referred to in my original post. I just used the link to the ABX Comparator so people would know what I was talking about.
His review of 12/14 would have no bearing being well before the ABX testing and the only review from Dagago on the Wells Audio Innomarata on 5/15 is from another reviewer, Greg Petan, not Douglas Schroeder. If there is another review by Schroeder on it I'd love to see a link to it.
Also, I don't see why he would use the Comparator in any other review since he did it for his own edification and simply became a better, more disciplined reviewer.
All the best,
Nonoise |
"Innomarata on 5/15 is from another reviewer, Greg Petan, not Douglas Schroeder. If there is another review by Schroeder on it I'd love to see a link to it."
I was looking at looking at something that Schroeder wrote on dagogo, and I thought that was a link to all of his reviews. I don't know how I missed that, but I was clearly in error. I should have been more careful. |
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Thanks for the info guys. I've never been an advocate of the "cables can improve the system" idea, but I'm open minded enough to give them a chance if I can do so on the cheap. Thank you all. |
Danoroo - how cheap do you want to go?
Are you able to make your own?
The spiral design IC's detailed under my System link (below) are excellent performers and depending on how far you want to go with them, they can start from around $70 for an all copper version up to $250 for a silver + copper neutral version.
I currently use the silver + copper neutral version and it's extremely good.
If you want more details let me know.
They same spiral design will also work with speaker cables, but I've only tried it with short cables - longer cables take a lot more effort to construct, but the short ones worked extremely well.
Regards. |
