No doubt high end audio vendors do love to make mountains out of mole hills sometimes.
I remember the days when we just sold customers buying good systems 12 gauge speaker wire and called it a day. Then came "Monster" cables. Scary! Then the floodgates opened.
Al, you are a knowledgeable and unbiased breath of fresh air and always welcome. I share your opinions regarded wires and such pretty much without exception. |
Thanks, Al. I missed that "10", and if those are 20KHz square waves, that's yet another example of presenting what is tantamount to nearly worthless information and representing it as relevant.
For those who don't understand square waves, their reproduction a particularly difficult test of bandwidth, because to get one to be really square, with nice flats tops and right-angle rises and falls, you need a very high degree of linearity at multiple harmonics around the fundamental frequency. So when Al posits that those are 20KHz square waves, that means that whatever is being tested needs to have great linearity in the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and so on harmonics. The second harmonic of a 20KHz fundamental is 40KHz. See what I mean? For audio performance a 2KHz square wave test would tell you so much more, but the problem is that the 12 gauge stranded Cu wire would probably look just awesome in such a test too, so they're probably not going to show you the results at 2KHz.
Even with the bogus skin depth calculations, and they appear to be using the right formulae, they aren't telling you that their calculation applies only to solid core conductors. The stranded wire case is more complex, and tends to reduce skin effect even further, which, as I pointed out, is largely irrelevant even for a solid conductor.
So while I agree with Al that Analysis Plus is at least using recognized criteria in their arguments, I just can't give them much credit for it, because they're misusing the information to mislead people, and that's inexcusable, IMHO. How would you like it if your plumber did that? Or your dentist? Or perhaps your accountant?
There are cable vendors around who accurately present information and produce high quality products. These products are worth paying for, and I do it. I use Blue Jeans Cables because I like their quality and service. BJC products aren't the cheapest alternatives available by any means; I like good-looking, high quality products that feel good just as much as anyone else. If people want luxury cables that look and feel like fire hose jewelry, cool. Even pure silver, if that's what rings their bell. What I can't understand is why anyone would want to tolerate a vendor of anything that openly tries to mislead them. |
Pops is too smart to sully himself in these waters. ;) |
They do run deep and cold... |
He keeps his feet on solid ground.
All the best,
Nonoise |
get a life. you guys have nothing else to do but argue about trivia ? |
MrT.,
In case you missed it, the last three posts were an epilogue of sorts, done in jest.
Any plainer and it would have stated:
THE END |
Hi everyone,I like some of what is being said here,you know the misleading and all the crap specifications that don't matter!,I do not have experience with analysis plus cables,however,I have seen a couple of members of the gon reccently not care alot about there foward sound they described that happened in their systems,ok,you know what?,automobile companys do the same, misleading the public!the fricken goverment is notorios for the same thing,you will have more misrepresentation with almost everything,a pair of pliers are pliers,opps,these are made in china!,guess what?,they wont be pliers very long,LOL!,you really can not base the cable industry as a whole on the findings of a particular cable company like analysis plus!,tell you what!read the papers on taralabs zero gold i/c,taralabs onyx i/c,taralabs omega gold speaker cables,and why you are doing that call all the reviewers liars when you see hundreds of positive reviews and awards thats been reposted on the Taralabs site!,like,the zero gold i/c componet of the year 2012,by the absolute sound! magazine!,their white papers make since on top of that!yes you will be stunned!,thanyou gentlemen for your time. |
fellas,to me this is funny,where is tobb,the guy that started this thread?got the xxxx out of dodge I suppose?LOL!cheers! |
what!come back!what are you people doing!do not leave!popcorn rules! |
02-17-13: Grannyring
...
For me simple, well constructed solid core copper cables sound best. No special pureness or anything. Just plain old Teflon coated, solid core copper in various gauges all bundled into a very thick and stiff cable.
To my ears and likes, they sound better then all high dollar silver cables I have tried. Again...for me. Another may need to spend big money for those pure silver cables as they sound best to them. It's all good and listen on! Grannyring -- Could you elaborate on the aspect of "various gauges all bundled into a very thick and stiff cable"? To my ears simply constructed solid core cables quite obviously is the way to go as well. There's something about their (lack of) sonic imprinting that is both distinctly "right" and that carries a particular marker(not to be confused with 'character;' on the contrary, as I hear it) that goes across their various incarnations. Previously I used Mundorf's teflon insulated 1.5mm solid core Silver/gold wires as stand-alone speaker cables, but for some time now I've run them in (single wire) parallel with Mundorf CFC14 copper foils(2.1 sqmm), a combination of which proves a great synergy and therefore comes highly recommended. The copper foils infuses body/substance, presence, vitality, a more natural tone and timbre, and sharper edges. The combination of the two wins over both in singular runs. It would seem parallel runs of similar cables in single wire configuration just as well lends many of the same traits as the silver/gold and copper combo mentioned above. |
forward sound is 2 dimensional sound. There are cables of can mess up a wide and deep stage. The same about amps. sources and speakers. That is why I learn my clients the difference between 2 dimensional and 3 dimensional sound. I never had a client who preferd 2 dimensional sound over 3 dimensional sound. this was after my explanation between the difference and the demo with music. Many clients who bought 2 dimensional products for a lot of money did not know this was possible. Or even did not know what it is. They all said; next time I will go for 3 dimensional stuff. Because you would be a fool to choose for 2 dimensional audio ( Standard Audio) Because the emotion and involvement in music is that much better. What I did in the past was letting people know what the competitors were. I said you have to listen to that and that. I send them to other shops. All these products were 2 dimensional brands. They came back and said: that is not of the same level. It was that easy to persuade. I had a lot of fun with this. I love it wenn other people in this business have not a lot of knowledge. |
Of course cables make a DIFFERENCE. But here's the rub. Look at this from this perspective: A recording engineer in one of the top studios in the country prepares to record a vocalist. Consider the signal path: microphone ---> cable ---> pre-amp ---> cable ---> EQ component ---> cable ---> compressor ---> cable ---> A/D converter ---> cable ---> into computer program (Pro Tools, Logic, Cubase, etc) for more sonic manipulation) ---> cable ---> D/A converter ---> cable --->speaker. I count about 7 different runs of cable between 8 different components. These 15 steps of flow will theoretically affect the original vocal source. Top studios (especially those who know how to record REAL ACOUSTIC instruments from clasical, jazz, folk, country, etc) either preserve the original source or manipulate the sound according to the performers expectations. Top studio's main goal is to never add color UNLESS it is desired, The very best studios in the world use Mogami cable...... a pair of interconnects can cost under $100. I've been in the top studios in LA, NY, Nashville and virtually NONE use the fancy cables that are topic to these discussions. The goal is for the engineer to sculpt the final audio outcome of what the performer desires. IF YOUR HOME SYSTEM IS FLAT, NEUTRAL, UNCOLORED, virtually ANY neutral cable is all that is necessary. IF YOU'RE TRYING TO CHANGE (MAKE DIFFERENT) THE SOUND THAT WAS CAPTURED IN THE ORIGINAL RECORDING, then spend $10,000 on some cables made of gold and platinum that were soaked in tomato juice. And you've also got bragging rights as the rich guy on these forums. |
Nonsense; with all due respect. It's frustrating how the obvious is always overlooked by the naysayers. It's not that recording engineers don't use better cables; actually, some do, and have expressed the benefits. It is that at the stage of the inevitable deterioration/ distortion of the music signal that recording engineers are working with, at the record/mix or mastering level, there is much more of the music still left intact. As a result, there is less PERCEIVED need to preserve that bit of fidelity that cabling inevitably mucks up. By the time we, as music consumers, listen to the product, which by then has seen all sorts of additional processing due to mastering, stamping, etc, if we lose another 3% (I hate attaching a % to these things; but, alas) it becomes unbearable..
I like food analogies: imagine you order a steak at a restaurant and it arrives pre-salted. You may or may not like salt on your meat, but a little bit is OK. Now, add a tiny pinch more salt, and you just can't eat it.
I, likewise, have been to many top studios and heard playback over crappy little Yamaha monitors, and the immediacy and impact of the master tape can be stunning. Same recording over my expensive speakers sounds, well...., recorded. |
You have to keep it as easy as possible. Spending a lot of money on cables give you not the insurrance of more quality in your system. But these days there are cables lmost who add new qualities in the overwhole sound. These qualities are convincing for almost all people. Like a wider and deeper stage. This is very easy to understand. Or more air and resolution. Some cables give a much better articulation of voices. So I do many a-b comparrison for clients to make it understandable. I never say: you have to buy this. I give them a demo to listen. They can make there own judgement. It is everyone's own choice. It is clear that differences in cables are big. Different does not mean better. But there are many parts were you can judge music and quality in sound for. Last few months I explain my clinets the difference between 2-dimensional and 3-dimensional sound. Every one understands it quite easy. Witht there own music it makes them more easy to understand. I test a lot of stuff. Any yesss there is a lot more stuff which is not that convincing. But it does not mean every cable is the same! |
again, with all due respect, I challenge you to tell me what "electronic instruments" are SUPPOSED to sound like. Let's say you're a rock fan.....there has never been a stadium rock concert where imaging is considered. Stereo sources become part of a main mono mix. And do you really strive to have your home system sound like a stadium rock concert? Conversely, consider an acoustic instrument concert in a small venue. If no mic-ing is used and you're in the sweet spot, only then do all the variables audiophiles discuss come into play.
I spent my life in this business. I'll say again, while studios may experiment with different cable tweaks, virtually NO studio (not even the top studios) wires the entire studio with Nordost Valhalla.....its simply not necessary while it might even color the original source. Those who disagree would be better to argue that they're ATTEMPTING TO SCUPLT A DIFFERENT AUDIO EFFECT ON THEIR HOME SYSTEMS, OR AT THE VERY LEAST, A SOUND THAT MATCHES THEIR LISTENING PREFERENCE.
I too have previously spent a lot of dough on home audio cables. And it's hard to feel good about spending $10k on speaker cables if they don't sound DIFFERENT. If you like DIFFERENT then go for it. DIFFERENT is not always better. But DIFFERENT could be what your individual taste requires and that's OK. |
again, with all due respect, I challenge you to tell me what "electronic instruments" are SUPPOSED to sound like. Let's say you're a rock fan.....there has never been a stadium rock concert where imaging is considered. Stereo sources become part of a main mono mix. And do you really strive to have your home system sound like a stadium rock concert? Conversely, consider an acoustic instrument concert in a small venue. If no mic-ing is used and you're in the sweet spot, only then do all the variables audiophiles discuss come into play.
I spent my life in this business. I'll say again, while studios may experiment with different cable tweaks, virtually NO studio (not even the top studios) wires the entire studio with Nordost Valhalla.....its simply not necessary while it might even color the original source. Those who disagree would be better to argue that they're ATTEMPTING TO SCUPLT A DIFFERENT AUDIO EFFECT ON THEIR HOME SYSTEMS, OR AT THE VERY LEAST, A SOUND THAT MATCHES THEIR LISTENING PREFERENCE.
I too have previously spent a lot of dough on home audio cables. And it's hard to feel good about spending $10k on speaker cables if they don't sound DIFFERENT. If you like DIFFERENT then go for it. DIFFERENT is not always better. But DIFFERENT could be what your individual taste requires and that's OK. |
Frogman - some of the top studios in the world have cheap Yamaha NS10s in their arsenal of equipment. There is a good reason for this, and it's not about creating a believable mix or master......it is about complying with radio expectations, sales to the ear-bud crowd, etc....the joke is that if you can get it to sound good on NS10s, it'll sound OK on your car radio or I-pod.
My point above was that you might have 8-10 cables between the components in a studio signal chain. The components themselves can easily cost $100k plus. We don't spend that kinda dough on hardware gear if we can't perceive a benefit. Those specific 8-10 components I noted are most often connected with high quality Mogami cables they cost roughly $3000 - $5000. Do you not believe 99.9% of the TOP studios would gladly spend 5-10 times that amount on cables if they made the difference that you are suggesting. The theoretical science behind cables is interesting, and the cable industry has exploited this information. But again, how much of a difference does it make in a studio set-up. The studio biz is competitive and I will purchase every "edge" I can to beat my competitor. A tube condenser mic or vintage compressor or Pultec EQ or great monitors will often make obvious audible differences. I've never had a client "hear the cables" and that's because relatively inexpensive Mogami cable is completely neutral to the human ear. (MASTERING is a whole different topic where commercial requirements/expectations must be met to promote sales - hence equipment tweaks are used to boost and cut, etc etc.) |
@ frogman,Well said my friend!,now @ jymc,I am a proffessional musician!,lets get that out of the way!,I will explain this situation like you have never heard before,yes studios use the likes of mogami cables,and they sound good!,here is the problem musicians and studios do not realize!,and what I am about to say needs to be spread all over audiogon!,and who said it!,now,since the source is as real as it gets,the origination of the music that is recorded,the mogami cables is all that is required,by the time the music at hand is recorded and put on a record or cd,it loses the integrity!,the music in no way sounds the way the muscians sounded live!,that being said,we,the audiophiles have to make up for this loss in the recording,this is why it is required that we have a much better quality cables than what is used in the studio!cheers! |
I would commend to everyone's attention a highly informative post by Ralph Karsten of Atma-Sphere in this thread, that is relevant to what is being discussed here. Interconnect cable differences could be completely eliminated if components were designed in accordance with low impedance balanced line principles which date back to the early days of hifi. Unfortunately, components usually are not designed in that manner. Ralph provides what IMO is persuasive proof of that contention. Regards, -- Al |
LOL!!! The thread from hell that just won't die!!! |
Discussions about it so much fun!!! I love it. Give me more, for me it is enough. I like to read about other people there opinion. If we would all have the same idea's, it would not be that fun anymore. For long time the Valhalla loudspeakercable was the fastest cable for money. But 2 weeks ago I had by far the shortest and quickest low freq. respons I heard so far at my tests. It was with the Audioquest Redwood. I will write a review in about 4 weeks about this cable. Wenn you use this cable you understand the meaning of black better than ever before. Mmmmmmmmm...cables |
Jmyc,
"I've never had a client "hear the cables" and that's because relatively inexpensive Mogami cable is completely neutral to the human ear."
How do you know that? What makes the Mogami cables completely neutral compared to other cables? I find that cables tend to be system dependant. Maybe, in a different system, another brand might more neutral than the Mogami. Or am I not reading your post correctly. |
I've heard the Mogami, they are just ok...nothing special. I enjoyed Analysis Plus Oval One just as much or more in my system. Audiolabyrinth is correct, the audiophiles need better cable. He's probably correct about why too. But what it boils down to for me is that once I had heard what some of the better quality cable do for an audio system, there was no going back to $100 "studio standard" ic cable.
Also, I have to agree with Zd542 that yes, cables are system dependent. So...if you want to know what cables can do for your system, simply try different cables at the top of your price range and then trust your ears. Most will find cabling with a sonic signature that is pleasing that presents the music the way they like it to be and for reasonable cost. I don't know what the big deal is? If God forbid you do not find any "high dollar" cable that you like, you can resell it easily in the used market!
This thread brings to mind a quote from author Robert M. Pirsig
"Quality is a direct experience independent of and prior to intellectual abstractions".
Robert M. Pirsig
So maybe just use an open mind, several hundred bucks or more, and hours of QUALITY listening time to select your favorite cables! If all else fails...ask Audiolabyrinth and he will tell you what you should get! hehe
Oh yeah, one more Pirsig quote for the cable haters:
~ "The absence of quality is the essence of squareness!" |
Some things seem so obvious and based on truth. It seems impossible not to all agree on them.
- cables are system dependent in terms of sounding better
- cables are human ear sets dependent in terms of hearing a difference
- cables do sound different and better in some/many systems and to some/many ears
- humans did not evolve from nothing or dirt
Oh we'll, let's continue to debate this based on our individual set of experiences which of coarse sets the lens or filter from which many here debate. Please understand however that your experience is but one conclusion or experience in the greater realm of truth mentioned above. |
Re: Food Analogies
Do $5,000.00 cables taste better than $30.00 cables? |
@ waxwaves,Wow! well said!you dropped the bomb!,if you guys listen to eanybody,understand what he just explained!very,very,awsome!,3-23-13 post by waxwaves! |
03-23-13: Waxwaves
If you want to know what cables can do for your system, simply try different cables at the top of your price range and then trust your ears.... So maybe just use an open mind, several hundred bucks or more, and hours of QUALITY listening time to select your favorite cables! If, as you and I and most of the rest of us agree, cable performance is system dependent, and if, as many of us agree, cable effects cannot be fully explained or predicted by generally recognized science, and if we truly want to keep an open mind, it would seem logical that equal opportunity and equal focus should be given to ALL price points, from the top of our individual affordability range on down. For example, the fact that Mogami proved to be nothing special in your system says little or nothing about the results it would provide in other systems. And I can recall more than a few posts in past threads here and elsewhere in which people have expressed surprise about how good the results were after they changed their high priced cabling to vastly less expensive Mogami. Not in every reported case in which that has been tried, but in many and probably most of them. Earlier in this thread, in my posts dated 3-8-13, 2-23-13, and 2-18-13, I cited several reasons why a high degree of correlation between cable performance and cable price, which is implicit in the opinion expressed in your post, should not be expected. IMO. Regards, -- Al |
@ Lianger,If they are Taralabs $5,000.00 cables,there is no comparision to a $30.00 cable,tast?,a little humor I suppose!,A $5,000.00 Tara cable is a better sounding cable than almost eanything out there at twice the price as this! |
03-24-13: Llanger
Re: Food Analogies
Do $5,000.00 cables taste better than $30.00 cables?
Llanger (Threads | Answers | This Thread) YES to some palates. A great example is wine. |
Jmyc,
I just read my last post. How I worded it sounds a little negative and/or challenging. I didn't mean to give that impression. I'm just interested as to how you came to that conclusion with regard to the Mogamy cables. |
@ L1anger,the answer to your last post is YES! |
Does a $5,000 watch tell time any better than a $30 watch?
Answer: Perhaps it will, more often than not, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility that in other cases the reverse might be true, or the difference might be negligible.
Regards,
-- Al |
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Al, good one. I move that all Ferarris be banned and everyone must drive Toyotas. |
03-26-13: Almarg
Does a $5,000 watch tell time any better than a $30 watch? I am somewhat reluctant to admit that I once owned a $5000 watch from a very well regarded manufacturer. It was an automatic watch, which is to say, its mainspring was wound automatically by the motion of the wearer's arm. It kept time approximately as accurately as the clock on my dog's automatic feeder. Which is to say, it sucked. Bryon |
Some people never fail to miss the point. The point is not that value and expense NEVER correlate. The point is that value and expense do not ALWAYS correlate.
Bryon |
03-27-13: Bryoncunningham
Some people never fail to miss the point. The point is not that value and expense NEVER correlate. The point is that value and expense do not ALWAYS correlate.
Bryon
Bryoncunningham (System | Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread) It's a personal decision and we all have our vices. |
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I'm somewhat reluctant to admit I once had a $5000 watch, as well. It made me feel guilty every time I wore it. I ended up getting rid of it and buying a pair of cables with the money. The guilt just went away. |
@ zd542, your 3-27-13 post was hilarious!,I would have done the same!cables are a real significance for high-end audio!Happy listening! |
Zd542,
What you do in public (watch) is one thing, what you do in the privacy of your own home (cables) is another. :^) |
I'm not reluctant to admit I have 3 expensive watches. My lifestyle has changed so don't wear them and are locked up in a safe deposit box.
What's interesting is it has appreciated over the years especially the one with 18K gold. Sure wish I can say the same for my audio stuff.
I think there are 2 audio dealers on Agon that accept watches and cameras as trade for audio components. Maybe one of these days I'll trade them in for something VERY nice :-) |
Yes! Macdadtexas! Cables certainly are MAGIC!!!! Do you agree Audiolab? |
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At last, a new topic that has never been discussed before now! |
Cables make your system come to life! |
it's a rhetorical question, as are others i've seen. |
Frogman,
It's baaaaa-ack!
Oh nooooo-ooo! |
