I have some KEF LS50 Wireless speakers and decided to use them with a Bluesound Node 2 via a Lifatec optical cable. Can I see a significant and worthy improvement if I swap out my power cords for something like Pangea cords? Do I need the AC 9SE MKII on the speakers or will the AC 14SE MKII be good for each speaker and also the Node 2 (C7?)? Power cords seem to be the only place left for me to tweak the most out of my setup.
Great post as usual. Why do you (perhaps) think that upgrading the power cables to the "wireless" LS50’s with internal amplifiers and 6’5 foot power cords would have less benefit than other applications?
Totally agree that the OP (or anyone else) should first try some power cables with the option to return for refund if they don’t provide the improvement he is looking for. The whole point is to try and then decide!
Upgrade my speaker wire??? Ugh. Do you understand my application?
I think moebuster nailed it. I appreciate everyone’s input and I’m going to try some inexpensive power cords (Pangea or Signal Cable). I like the fact that my Class D amps would be fine going with an upgraded 14awg. That will save a bit. My setup isn’t that complex. It’s the two wireless speakers and a Node 2. I have been Googling and searching for others that have attempted this and haven’t found any helpful info. I got a good deal on the KEFs and the Node 2 so I’m only looking to put about $250ish max in cords if I can see a benefit over the supplied cords.
Now, I just need to figure out do I go optical digital or analog out of the Node 2 so I can get full MQA?
Dave (Dlcockrum), thank you kindly. But, no, I didn’t mean to imply that upgrading the power cords on the wireless LS50s would be any less (or any more) likely to be beneficial than in other applications. I was just suggesting that the uniqueness of the design results in little if any predictability of whatever differences may result, and minimizes the relevance of reported experiences that are based on other systems and setups.
I make (and have sold) my own audio power cables. I usually buy materials thru Newark Electronics, MCM, Parts Express (which I used a lot). I get the Watt IEC connectors or hospital grade/similar and order the 10/12 gauge AC wire and snakeskin to make it pretty. Also Shrink tubing is a very good idea. Just solder, or use the screw in connectors to the plugs AFTER threading the snakeskin/shrink tubing (I do one side then thread the tubing/skin after). I test the plugs for shorts, then plug it in and test the AC power connection before bringing it near the equipment. Using a DVM of course. I think I was paying about $40 in parts, the plugs can be as expensive as you'd like. I have no idea why electricity running thru miles of crappy cabling and romex can be altered by a few feet of high grade AC wire/plus but it can be dramatic. I mainly used them for preamps and esp. power amps. I was a dealer for Mondial (RIP, thanks Klipsh), YBA, NAD, Myryad and a few others. I also have an Associates in Applie Electronics. Not saying this to be pretentious, just I have somewhat of a clue what's going on. Hope this helps.
Quote: BTW - add-on ferrite chokes not only kill the RF/EMI/digital hash (if they do) but also the sound. Try them and see.
What a load of hooey. So you’ll admit that the ferrite chokes will block/filter the harmful effects of RF and EMI but in doing so it makes a generic pc sound worse? Really? The chokes prevent your pc from becoming an antenna for any stray and spurious RF/EMI. And when those chokes perform exactly as they’re supposed to they somehow decrease the potential performance of any given pc? Puh-lese.
I find ferrites to squash the sound as well. Though, it was definitely a black background. But the music seemed compressed. Not sure how else to describe it.
Some will only present significant impedances at frequencies that are well into the RF region, even tens of MHz in some cases. Others will present a potentially significant impedance at frequencies well under 100 KHz (see the first graph here, for example; while the graph doesn’t depict what happens below 100 KHz, it seems clear that a significant number of ohms would be presented well below that frequency).
In various threads here Atmasphere (Ralph) has explained that the performance of power amplifiers will often be compromised to an audible degree if power cord bandwidth does not extend up to several or even many tens of KHz, because if it does not extend that high limitations may occur in responsiveness to abrupt changes in demand for current, that occur as rectifier diodes switch on and off during parts of each 60 (or 50) Hz cycle. A similar point has been made in some Shunyata literature, accompanied with comparative measurements of various power cords.
So if the chosen ferrite is effective at particularly low frequencies, it may have adverse effects on dynamics or other sonic characteristics, depending on the specific component it is used with. If is effective only at very high frequencies, it may or may not accomplish anything, depending on the specific component it is used with. And in that regard, keep in mind that digital components in particular may generate noise having significant spectral components as high as several tens of MHz, due to the fast transition times between their two voltage stages (i.e., their risetimes and falltimes), which could conceivably couple into other components in the system via their power cords and the AC wiring. (Those frequencies are of course much too high to be directly audible, but could have audible consequences as a result of effects such as intermodulation, AM demodulation, timing jitter in a DAC, etc).
Finally, there is the possibility that even if the sonic accuracy of a system is improved by filtering noise that enters or exits a component via its power cord, that might not be preferable from a subjective standpoint. To cite just one example, toward the end of this paper Steve Nugent of Empirical Audio explains that depending on its spectral characteristics a reduction in timing jitter in a DAC might be found to be objectionable from a subjective standpoint:
Another interesting thing about audibility of jitter is it’s ability to mask other sibilance in a system. Sometimes, when the jitter is reduced in a system, other component sibilance is now obvious and even more objectionable than the original jitter was. Removing the jitter is the right thing to do however, and then replace the objectionable component. The end result will be much more enjoyable.
Jitter can even be euphonic in nature if it has the right frequency content. Some audiophiles like the effect of even-order harmonics in tubes, and like tubes, jitter distortion can in some systems "smooth" vocals. Again, the right thing to do is reduce the jitter and replace the objectionable components. It is fairly easy to become convinced that reducing jitter is not necessarily a positive step, however this is definitely going down the garden path and will ultimately limit your achievement of audio nirvana.
So as is usual in audio, the question of ferrites involves a multitude of complex variables and tradeoffs, and doesn’t have a great deal of predictability, and doesn’t have a one size fits all answer.
Tjassoc: Quickest way to assignation on this site is to argue with emotion and personal opinion while brandishing higher education! Save yourself the headache! High end does not mean all opinions here are associated to it! Friendly advice!
Measure the speakers distance to walls and floors - avoid similar or doubled distances.
Have lots of glass, heavy furnishings, a rack between the speakers? Look into that too.
Get a test CD, and rent/buy a good SPL meter
Play your favorite recordings that you have heard on distinctly better equipment and figure out if there are trends in your system.
Bring in new cables, but have them switched by a friend so they are blind to you. Have them mark your preferences. In most cases you won't have one, given audio nervosa and the ego pride of new and expensive gear.
I have heard cables sound different at times, with a preference. As a hobbyist for over 40 years and dealer for years I've heard a lot, but never have I heard cables do a fraction of what a properly set up ASC trap room does, nor come close to overcoming a poorly set up room, or mediocre equipment.
Said another way, its possible cables may help tune your system to a higher level, but it's at best a cherry on a desert, the other 6 courses of the meal come first.
"Also keep your PC away from your interconnects or if they must cross have the cables at 90 deg to each other."
Here you locked onto one way well designed cables can help your "system" by helping to address the cluttered "cable ecosystem" often found behind our gear. I cannot tell you how a good PC does or does not "clean up" power from the wall to your equipment (garbage into cable - 4 star power dinner out? OK, maybe), but it only makes sense that reducing stray electrical fields and interference between high current cables and low current cables in the vaccinity of your amp and source can yield real gains in fidelity. Better cable geometry and shielding across all applications behind your gear helps solve the same problems as keeping "your PC away from your interconnects" in physical space.
Al, terrific input here as usual. I agree with your assessment of the unique applications presented by the LS50's. Two issues come to mind:
One, there is unlikely very much other wire clutter behind your speakers, so the benefit of a better shielded PC to reduce interference with IC's and speaker cables all exiting the same amp or reciever i describe above is essentially moot. This leaves a more solid connection to speaker and power outlet as a potential advantage of a better cable with better connectors, along with improved match of metallurgy, dielectric and wire geometry with the properties of what are really very complicated speakers with many things going on inside them as Al notes.
Two, given the complex devices, I might look at PCs that would work well with modestly powered but quality switching AVRs that contain both amplification and digital circuitry. You need to supply juice for 230wpc of switching power, right? Suggestions by others above to focus on smaller gauges common for digital applications versus heavy "garden hose" PCs seem warranted as taming digital artifacts may be more important than raw current for this application, and very heavy cables on small speakers may present physical stability issues. But YMMV.
In my experience, better cables across the board make a positive and sometimes radical difference in sound, but as suggested by others, you just have to try several solutions to see what works best in your application. I like the idea of contacting the Cable Co. and asking their advice for 2-3 cables to send you in your price range to try with the KEFs (and the Node?) and listen for yourself to see which cables sound better, if any, compared to the stock PCs.
Finally, you may want to try at least one power conditioner and move between the speakers and the Node 2 in order to see if that helps improve your sound. You may decide you need two if the Node and speakers are far apart and both show benefit.
In the last month & a half I've made a few power cords that I'm very impressed with using Oyaide Tunami wire (purchased from Chris at VH Audio) and Neotech connectors from Parts Connexion. The wire is $30 a foot & the ends are $25 each (they are a discontinued model from Neotech that retail for $70 each). All that said, you can make a very good 4' power cord for $170 plus shipping. These PC's replaced Pangea 14's & a 9 as well as some older Tribularies. They are better in every way, not even in the same ballpark. In regard to the statement above about updating your equipment instead of wire; I've been using the same phono amp, preamp, power amp, & speakers for 10 to 20 years (depending on component), & can tell you first hand that wire matters. I like the Oyaide PC wire so much that I purchased more of that last week to try as speaker cable. Pretty dumb huh, not... Although it only has about 30 hours on it now, that has also made a large improvement to the sound. That wire replaced Morrows SP5 cable, which is also very good. I should add that my whole system with the exception of the sub, is run through a very large Exactpower transformer so that could also be why the difference in wire is so profound. I really don't know, but the investment was worthwhile.
This was posted by Cnet reviews on internet: highly respected reviewers of high end Audio:
Power Cables
High-end power cables are seriously a thing. I'm not kidding. If you believe changing the power cable in your gear will improve the audio or video...I have an island I want to sell you.
In short (so to speak), power cables have no effect on audio, video or any other kind of fidelity.
This thread is no place for real electrical knowledge and logic. There's people here referencing Shunyata papers as proof of the science behind high-end cables.
make your own, their is no special magical spells being used by companies that can claim the one you made at home is inferrror. USe good quality cable, good connector and terminate it correctly.
Ah, Geoff, good point - power cords are indeed directional, the power plug end goes into the wall or conditioner outlet and the iec plug end connects directly with the gear to be powered. For best results, do not try it the other way around. Happy 4th
Pennsey wrote (or copied): "
High-end power cables are seriously a thing. I'm not kidding. If you believe changing the power cable in your gear will improve the audio or video...I have an island I want to sell you."
Since this is an audio forum, I'll buy the island if it improves the soundstage & midrange of my system the way the above mentioned power cord has. Also, it has to be picturesque, warm, sunny, not riddled with rodents or biting insects, spiders, fly's (etc.), and as affordable as the Oyaide Tunami power cord. Deal?
Geoffkait: A large portion of electronics is personal taste! The power of the mind can move mountains! I bought a Pangea Amp power cord ( like 8 Guage ) and connected it to a Anthem amp! I noticed a change in sonic capabilities! My belief is the change in amperage flow (to unit ) that does it ! It's amperage that kills you with electricity vs Wattage! So do power cords give blinding change to sonic reproduction! It's your money, and your belief! I own Cardas clear! 4 figure power cables! Do the clear improve my system by 4 figures! IMO NO!
A leading authority on high end usually means some guy with a large number of publications in reviewed journals, and a nice big budget for his research lab.
OTOH, placebophiles are often misled on what an authority is.
OP - follow dlcockrum's advice except for one thing...
you can still tweak to your heart's content - all you need is knowledge of acoustics, a measurement microphone, a software sound analysis program, and a contractor to modify your room or build another one....
then there is the issue of adding subs to your nice kefs
Randy11: Please share with me YOUR credentials that circumvent that of CNET! Corporations provide units at no cost for review because their opinion can drive sales! Not all reviewers are on the take! I tend to follow their advice! I hold multiple (2) degrees from Penn State associated to this subject! Please tell me why I'm wrong!
randy-11 A leading authority on high end usually means some guy with a large number of publications in reviewed journals, and a nice big budget for his research lab.
OTOH, placebophiles are often misled on what an authority is.
>>>>I hate to judge before all the facts are in, Randee, but you appear to be totally unfamiliar with the Appeal to Authority. You know, the pseudo skeptic’s favorite illogical argument. You're following the wrong sheep.
Placebophile, really Randy # 11? There are apparently thousands of us around the world that fit into that category. To think we were all drawn into "the most expensive, fattest, grooviest looking power cord" actually sounding different in our systems. You have a lot of work to do & need to get this information out to the audiophile masses before any others are misled.
Randy 11: Your opinion and your prose! I'm a associate professor and fail to follow your diction ! I will turn your rhetoric over to geoffkait and boxer 11! At least they can decider your enigmatic prose! Please refer to last two words!
Upgrade your table lamps with new PCs. You will not believe the difference in luminance, clarity and dramatically enhanced visuality. I even added a $2000 PC to my refrigerator. Holy Crap. Saves on power consumption, and stuff stays colder longer without going stale...the ice maker even operates with less noise. Replaced my computer's BENQ 4k 32" monitor's power cable with a $2350 VideoQuest version and my Call of Duty games play at a faster frame rate, greater texture and without latency.
This is amazing. Expensive Power Cords are God's gift to us. They provide jaw-dropping enhancements to just about anything.
I am not sure how number of posts make a difference on the recommendations. I was bored one Saturday morning and decided to try and add some helpful advice. My background is in electrical and computer engineering with a career in biotech manufacturing automation (and instrumentation).
I agree with the poster about the cherry on top. There are many things that can be done in speaker positioning and room treatment to better the sound before getting to power cable upgrades.
Also, I agree a PC could make a difference IF preceded by a power conditioner and if shielded (with the shield grounded on one end only).
Also, I do not see how someone could argue against noise reduction techniques used by instrumentation engineers (airplane, medical, defense).
Finally (since I can not post a picture here). Check out the second interior shot of this $14K Italian Agua HIFI Formula DAC review on 6moons.
Have a look in the upper left hand side of the picture. There you will see a fat woven Sablon Audio Petit Corona power cords (at ~$130/ft (however, in this case at least they are hooked up to a power conditioner - Granada/Alhambra) which should validate at least one of my suggestions)) then what does that fancy expensive power cable plug into? A IEC connector... what is on the other side of the connector? 18 gauge wire connected to the IEC backside flat shaped prong connectors? SLIDE ONs? Not even soldered? Good thing you bought that mega buck power cable. <sarcasm>I bet those electrons get really mad after traveling on the lap of luxury on the fat power cable, then being made to stuff themselves down through tiny off the shelf 18 gauge power wires and also having to jump through the small gaps made by the SLIP ON connectors. <sarcasm/off> LOL!
All I am really trying to say is yes, enjoy your audio, it is a rewarding hobby. However, just be smart about where you spend your hard earned $$$. If you really want to learn and tweak without speeding your life's savings on opinions and reviews. Have a look at DIYaudio forums and kit equipment. You will learn how to quickly (and fairly cheaply though ... capacitors can get pricey) make your own equipment that rivals or exceeds many mega buck store bought stuff and be able to test which upgrades really make a difference. Granted this can be a much larger time investment. Transcendent Sound is a good kit maker. There are many others.
sometimes it seems that audiogon cable threads are the last place in our society where people are outraged that manufacturers charge excessive prices, and that strangers might pay too much money for items that may not even need...
dynaquest4, Did you get this site mixed up with the Home Depot forum. The people on that site probably have as much interest in upgrading power cords going to their appliances as you do upgrading the wire going into your audio system. Just think of the impact you could have on that site!
Core power technologies which make excellent transformer Cables or whole system 1200 watt,and 1800 watt much better value ,they sell a Excellent just power cord. Cullen I think makes then. CULLEN WHICH WAS or still is associated with Wyred 4 sound cullen has a $199 csble Under A.C. cables on Audiogon that will beat cables several times this including Shunyata venom 3 . With a 30 day money back trial Even the $99 very good and solid Copper connectors that alone is key under conductive index the standard connectors brass Are 4x Less conductive a contact then Copper. Progold,, messy silver paste NG compared. A.c. connector, and preamp tube pins ok As ling as it doesnot get to hot like a 211 tube or power tubes. You should treat your connectors,and let then dry an hour first With the bedt product and used by NASA. Stabilant -22. I use on every contact in my System last for years and enhances the electrical conductivity I have tried then all. There WAS something called tweak that was out but was a 8-1 mix nowhere nears as good.. The 22 at the end just jeans cut4-1 with alcohol. I use just Stabilant, straight thin coat. All connections clean hood with 99% Isopropyl slcohol.it evaporates clean and Fast. Check it out.
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