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Cartridge Upgrade ...AT ART-9?
Hello all , I'm looking to upgrade to a better TT / cartridge and I've heard from a very reliable source that the AT ART-9 is unbeliebavly great cartridge.
I listen to mostly Classic Rock /Jazz Fusion ....I currently just have a Technics SL15 with a P205CMK3. I'd like to get something that is higher end around $1K that dramatically improves my setup.
Anything that is with mentioning that gives the ART-9 a run in that range? Thanks!
Allnic H1201
Lyngdorf TDAI 2170
Tekton DI SE
I listen to mostly Classic Rock /Jazz Fusion ....I currently just have a Technics SL15 with a P205CMK3. I'd like to get something that is higher end around $1K that dramatically improves my setup.
Anything that is with mentioning that gives the ART-9 a run in that range? Thanks!
Allnic H1201
Lyngdorf TDAI 2170
Tekton DI SE
56 responses Add your response
Orto tends to get sibilant in certain arms/set-ups as can be read online in other forums. Buy a (vintage) Moving Flux instead, like GLANZ MFG-51L. ART9 is a magnificent performer but needs 200 hours to really sing IME and THEN it´s very hard to "beat". Save that cart up-grade fund, including possibly better Shelter, for better TT. It´s ALWAYS worth to improve TT first, then cartridge. Only better TT can dramatically improve your system. Period. |
You could try a JICO SAS stylus for your Technics MM cartridge. Old SAS has Boron cantilever, NEO SAS can be Ruby or Sapphire SAS (Super Analogue Stylus) is a huge upgrade for 205c mk3 Have you ever tried it ? Do you know anything about this option ? For my old Technics 205c mk3 the SAS (Boron) was superb. But on 205c mk4 i prefered the original stylus. You have to try SAS, the price is just about $350-450
Do you mean just $1k for a cartridge and turntable ? I think you have a nice DD turntable and all you need is a better tonearm and maybe a better cartridge (if you don’t want just to try SAS stylus). In my opinion JICO SAS will change a lot. But what is your tonearm now ? |
Chakster: thanks for the info . I was thinking of upgrading and making the jump to a “high end” table/arm/cartridge and keeping the SL15 as my childhood novelty table . $1000 was just for the cartridge , I’m open to suggestion on new everything , I like the look of some of the newer tables ...VPI etc ...I want a table that wows me but don’t have to take out a 2nd to get it 😀 Sidenote : I have 2 Technics SL15s w exact same cartridge in both ( no idea on which tone arm) whatever the box came with at the time suspecting . I notice that both tables produce distortion i believe mainly on the left side only , they may just need to be adjusted to get the stylus to press harder but it’s annoying ! Or your SAS upgrade may be a good option for my SL15s ...weird , I always have heard the Technics P205CMK3 were one of the better carts for that table ....thanks for your help! |
I have 2 Technics SL15s w exact same cartridge in both ( no idea on which tone arm) whatever the box came with at the time suspecting . I notice that both tables produce distortion i believe mainly on the left side only , they may just need to be adjusted to get the stylus to press harder but it’s annoying ! Or your SAS upgrade may be a good option for my SL15s ...weird , I always have heard the Technics P205CMK3 were one of the better carts for that table ....thanks for your help! I'm sorry, i thought you have SP15 , but you have SL15 with Linear Tracking toneam and P-Mount cartridge. JICO SAS is not available for P-MOUNT version of the P205cmk3. Anyway, your compact SL-15 is an interesting turntable, i always wanted to buy one, but with mk4 version of that cartridge. The problem with automatic turntable is the service, i hope you can find someone who can service your SL-15, maybe our jpjones in NYC can do that ? If this turntable is refurbished by professional then it normally cost over $1k in good cosmetic condition. I think it's amazing turntable and i want one. Do you like the new Technics series of DD turntables? As for the cartridge at $1k there are many options, but you have to buy a cartridge for the tonearm. If your tonearm is not superheavy or not superlight then mid compliance cartridge is fine. |
Technics SL-15 is such cool looking DD turntable, the size is exactly like the LP sleeve, the weight is 6.6kg, there is a build-in pre-preamp for MC cartridges! The price in the 1981 was 150 000 YEN ! Here is a video of this beast in action. "The Technics is a high-tech Direct Drive linear-tracking turntable. It automatically plays the record selections you want and skips the ones you don’t. It completely eliminates tracking error and is so advanced it can even play upside down. The SL-15’s microcomputer and infrared optical sensor let you play up to 10 cuts per side, in any order. Just press the program keys in the order of the selections you want to hear. And with the repeat button, the SL-15 can repeat the entire program or any selection. The SL-15 performs virtually any function, automatically. It accurately selects the record size and speed, finds the lead-in groove and begins playback at the touch of a button. More proof of the SL-15’s accuracy is its quartz-locked, direct-drive motor and dynamically balanced, linear-tracking tonearm. In addition to tracking perfectly, the SL-15 plays a record as accurately upside down as it does right side up. The whole body of the truntable is made of precision aluminium diecast upper and lower interlocking cabinet halves. The same build quality can be found also in the Technics SL-10" @lewm I think it’s standard P-Mount cartridge, if the suspension is OK then it is a great MM cartridge with Hollow Pipe Boron cantilever, nude diamond mounted through the tiny hole made in Boron cantilever (laser etched) as seen on this picture. I’ve seen many P-Mount versions of our favorite MM cartridges included Stanton top models. So it shouldn’t be a problem to find a cartridge for this turntable. Audio-Technica also made P-mount cartridges. @tommypenngotti find someone who can service your SL-15 and try another cartridge if the one you have caused some problems. It must be a great turntable if the price in 1981 was so high (150 000 YEN in Japan). |
I wanted to ask you about the sibilance in one channel you mentioned. You said both your tables do the same thing so i'm wondering if there is an issue with the model or if because of the age there is similar issues with set up. As you mentioned you may need the stylus to push harder. this is called tracking force and there should be an amount in the carts manual or try google. get a tracking force gauge and measure it properly don't guess most carts are in the 1-3gram range with 2g average. Also if you do have tracking error from set up, too much or not enough anti-skate could cause issues in just one channel, for example also if the stylus is canted in the grove. So many issues can come from improperly set up tables-arms-carts so look for a guide on you tube Michael Fremer is a very good man to google for info on a lot of analog stuff. he has a very good set up video. https://www.analogplanet.com/category/set-tips |
I wanted to ask you about the sibilance in one channel you mentioned. You said both your tables do the same thing so i'm wondering if there is an issue with the model or if because of the age there is similar issues with set up @glennewdick - SL15 has VTF adjustment screw & meter to gauge , very difficult to see....could be the problem ....I thought it was odd its both decks as well....2 different systems with same issues odd... |
There is no anti-skating to adjust in a straight line tracking tonearm. So that per se should not be the problem or a cause of distortion in the left channel. What I am wondering about is whether you are having some friction in the bearing of the straight-line tonearm that is retarding its motion across the surface of the LP. This could cause distortion, possibly in one channel. |
You can just buy this brand new Technics SL1500c that coming later this year. The best design in my opinion. There is a built-in phono stage as i can see in the press-release ? " Las Vegas, NV, United States, 7 January 2019 – Technics today unveiled the new SL-1500C Premium Class Direct Drive Turntable System. The SL-1500C inherits the brand’s high-end sound quality concept and adds a host of original Technics technologies, such as a coreless direct drive motor and high-- sensitivity tonearm. To simplify the playing of analogue records, the built-in Phono EQ connects to a wide variety of devices. The SL-1500C also comes equipped with a high-quality Ortofon 2M Red phono cartridge. The SL-1500C is a complete turntable system designed for a wide range of users, even outside of strictly dedicated audio enthusiasts." |
Dear @toommypenngotti : Definetely a LOMC cartridge is a serious up-grade over MM/MI cartridges. These ones are good options for you: https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9a5f8-air-tight-pc-3-phono-cartridge-cartridges excellent performer an better than the ART9, builded by My Sonic Labs cartridge manufacturer. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis99d02-audio-technica-art-7-lomc-price-break-cartridges very good option as alternative to the ART 9 witn advantages over the 9 and at excellent price. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9a9d2-dynavector-dv-xx2-mkii-_warranty-included-cartridges this too is a very good performer and is new sample. https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9a444-shelter-501-mkii-cartridges Shelter never dissapoint me. Now for those kind of LOMC cartridges you need a good solid state ( tubes destroy any cartridge signal that pass trhough it. Forgeret about tubes. Tubes are for sound lovers but not for MUSIC lovers. )phono stage design and a good TT as the one you mentioned: Technics 1200G that comes with very good magnesium tonearm and removable headshell where you can use your 205CMK3 too. You can re-tip your 205CMK3 through: http://www.phonocartridgeretipping.com/ ask to Andy boron/microridge cantilever combination that outperforms easily the original version you own by a wide margin ( not only because is better stylus shape but solid boron is superior to hollow one or berilyum. ) and you can buy the plug-in adaptor for a universal removable headshell ( in the 1200G. ) through ebay or Soundsmith. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Re-tipping Technics cartridges is a very bad idea, refurbishing it with a different cantilever is a completely waste of money. I don’t want to start all over again, it’s all on this forum and anyone can search for it. Andy destroyed jpjones cartridge, Axel refurbished mine for Foxtan from whom i bought it "as the original" (he cheated me) and later when i compared refurbished cart with original the original was so much better (day and night difference). Easily buy another cartridge if you have a problem with Technics cartridge, the AT-ML180 is much better than Technics 205c mk4. Or LOMC if you wish to. SoundSmith does not guarantee a possibility of re-tipping Technics, i asked him ones. For any re-tipper it is more "like a project", they can do that maybe, or maybe they can destroy your cartridge. This is a very expensive and too complicated job. Actually original cartridge is always better, much better to invest more money in better cartridge. After all the P205mk3 is not so special as the mk4. |
this is kind of off my original subject , but I tried switching inputs L/R on the RCAs of my SL15 to power amp & it seemed to clean up the distortion , I think The RCAs are going bad . These Technics cables are hard to find & not cheap , guess I could just use regular RCAs & ground wire to any screw on SL15 .... |
Dear @harold-not-the-barrel : The OP 205MK3 are in operation condition but after so many time a change is in order due that the cartridge motor design is similar to the MK4 and any re-tipper only need to change cantilever/stylus with out repair anything else. Even with today boron/stylus will outperform the MK4 and probably its big broter EPC 100C MK4. As a fact the 205 MK4 and 3 started in the market two years latter than the 100C MK4.b Were the latest MM Technics great designs. All those are facts to help the OP but if he want to go for the Art 9 is fine with me or even with other MM/MI cartridges. Other gentleman posted here that the OP needs a phono stage different from what he owns if he wants LOMC cartridges. At the end it's up to the OP that's whom will " live " with his choices, not you or me. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Raul, your post was meant to be some other as I never have talked ´bout Technics cartridges. I agree that ART7 may very well be even better than ART9 because it´s very low output 0.12 mV. But it needs a very HQ preamp to get the best out it. For OP it´s better to stay with ART9, first upgrade his deck, then cartridge. Besides, I doubt that ART7 is better than a vintage LOMC say Highphonic in that very low level 0.12 mV. |
Dear @harold-not-the-barrel : My mistake, never mind. In the other side I still own Highphonic that's very low output a was designed by Denon ex-workers, these gentlemans participated in the Denon very low output cartridge designs and afetr that founded highphonic designing cartridges and a tonearm. Very good cartridges indeed. The ART 7 is a good cartridge but its sound signature is different from the Highphonic. R. |
The SL-15 uses a p-mount cartridge, of which your choices are severely limited to conical and bonded elliptical moving magnet designs. Keep that SL-15 as it is very historically significant and buy a conventional arm vintage or new direct drive turntable and you will be able to choose from so many cartridges it’ll make your head spin. |
I should add that I own three Technics linear tracking turntables, the SL-DL5 which is direct drive but not quartz locked, and two SL-QL5 turntables, which as the name implies are quartz locked. They use the p-mount system, which is pre-calibrated for any cartridge to work with any turntable. The arm drive on these older units is said to need cleaning and relubrication at the age they are now. This will probably restore some or all sound quality. |
The SL-15 uses a p-mount cartridge, of which your choices are severely limited to conical and bonded elliptical moving magnet designs. Not at all. Simply find an amazing P-Mount cartridges designed by Stanton back in the 70s/80s with Nude Stereohedron styli on them, they are high compliance. What’s wrong with MM design? Stanton made low impedance and low output LZS version of their top on the line MM too, those carts are Moving Magnet but works with MC phono stage or headamp. |
Most people in the US, I think, buy gray market and a retip deal through AT is not available to them. If you buy through local authorized dealer you can inquire there. In the US, the dealer is LP Gear. The cartridge is more widely distributed through dealers in Europe and Japan. The independent retippers, like SoundSmith, can be contacted for their possible deals on an AT Art-9. |
I tried messing with my Technics P205CMKlll last night , adjusted the Stylus pressure , took off the cart and cleaned , something is not tracking correctly . I put on Donald Fagen The Nightfly and on track 1 ok LP it is right off the bat having trouble tracking , distorted and as the song progresses it cleans up ... its hard to see the cantilever/ tip , but I think it may be slightly bent 😒 ....very annoying ! |
I tried messing with my Technics P205CMKlll last night , adjusted the Stylus pressure , took off the cart and cleaned , something is not tracking correctly . I put on Donald Fagen The Nightfly and on track 1 ok LP it is right off the bat having trouble tracking , distorted and as the song progresses it cleans up ... @tommypenngotti This cartridhe has very tall nude diamond, look at my picture, if you can’t see it when you clean the stylus then your diamond is damaged. At the same time this cartridge ALWAYS has supension problem, it’s a lowrider, almost lay down on the record surface when suspension is bad even at 1.2g tracking force. If you have something like that forget it, no one will be able to repair suspension without completely replacing a cantilever. In this scenario you’d be better with another genuine cartridge, look for the Stanton P-Mount models from this catalog for example. Stanton Stereohedron stylus is amazing. Your turntable need servicing by professional, on youtube you can find videos about it. If you have P-mount adaptor then you could try your Technics cartridge on conventional tonearm to make sure about suspension (but it make sense only if the diamond is exactly like on my picture, not damaged or destroyed). @melm Most people in the US, I think, buy gray market and a retip deal through AT is not available to them. I expected this answer, but it is absolutely make no sense to buy a brand new model of the japanese cartridge from AT to retip it with thirdparty vendor in USA with different diamond etc. Again: this is a brand new cartridge with full support from the manufacturer in Japan. If you buy through local authorized dealer you can inquire there. In the US, the dealer is LP Gear. This is much better. I’m just curious about AT policy when it comes to retip, but i’m not interested in buyin’ ART-9. But i think for potential buyers it must be №1 question (to get full support from the manufacturer). |
@chakster Aside from the retip, which is usually a replacement, i don't really understand what is meant by "full support from the manufacturer in Japan." Given that the cartridge is in good shape upon receipt I have never seen anything go wrong with a cartridge (and I have had many) except the usual aging process. And if it is not in good shape upon receipt, that is an issue for the dealer, not the manufacturer. I do not know what support, including retipping is offered by purchase from LP Gear. Do you? Does anyone? But the LP Gear price is $1095 and the least expensive new Art-9 currently offered on ebay is $949. It has been offered for much less, as when I bought mine. My own thinking at the time is that I would rather save the money now than worry about what might happen at some time in the future. I'm sure many thought the same. What makes you think that a retip of the Art-9 by SoundSmith makes "absolutely no sense." They retip some very sophisticated cartridges, apparently with complete success. Do you know something? Or is this just more idle chatter. |
@melm The lowest price for a brand new ART-9 from japanese shops is about $800-900 if i remember correct, i'm pretty sure the japanese shop are official dealers, some of them can sell internationally (some will never do that). If you're buyin' a cartridge to use it for a long time, i think, saving $300 on grey market sample is not worth it (i did that by saving much more and regret it after all, but it wasn't the ART9). When you're buyin from the official distributor you have full support, even if your cartridge is accidentaly damaged or simply require stylus retip when the stylus is worn, they can do that in Japan at Audio-Technica. I'm not sure about AT policy regarding this particular model, this is why i am asking. If the factory retip is possible this is the best you can do when you need it. If the cantilever is damaged and you must have to replace it with a new cantilever you can only do that (equally) in Japan at Audio-Technica. If you prefer to service all the cartridges at SoundSmith or any other experienced vendor then, i hope, you understand that it is ONLY a compromise, but definitely not the best solution. Why? Let me quote J.Carr (Lyra cartridge Designer) below: To retip a cartridge that was originally equipped with a stylus made by one manufacturer with one made by a different manufacturer is like rebuilding a Porsche engine with Jaguar pistons and crankshaft - the components used for rebuilding may be of high quality, but the design philosophy is rather different from the original. |
@chakster Mr. Carr sells cartridges and retips. He sells HIS cartridges and retips. SoundSmith is a competitor. They sell cartridges and retips of their cartridges and other people’s cartridges, including those of Carr. Peter Ledermann, the proprietor of SoundSmith, will happily give all of the considerations of which he’s aware about his services. Positive and negative. He often appears in these types of forums and provides what he knows. He does that WITHOUT disparaging the work and product and business ethics of competitors. He will answer emails; he will get on the phone with customers. His work on a variety of cartridges has been given great praise on forums like this one. There are others who provide similar retipping services who have received praise in forums like this one. Still the unanswered question: What EXACTLY does Audio Technica offer by way of after-sales service to those purchasing from an authorized dealer? Is LP Gear an authorized dealer? If a US resident buys from a Japanese authorized dealer can he expect after-sales service? Does Audio Technica offer retips? If so, what is the cost? |
Back to the original question... my upgrade path was Blue Point #2, then Ortofon 10x5, then AT ART9. I have been very happy with the ART9 for about a year. So much so, that when time comes to replace it, I will be getting another ART9. It now has around 400-500 hours on it, and sounds fantastic. Check other reviews on ART9, and I think you'll see you cannot go wrong. That said, maybe others like Shelter would be different, and maybe even better in your system... but you can't go wrong with the ART9. IMO, it's a good high-end value. I think your Allnic Phono Preamp would mate very well with it, and should sound great! It has 62db of gain, or 66db, either of which should be excellent. |
Comment 1: Have seen too many compliments about Soundsmith retipped carts. Never heard anyone say they regretted it or it sounded worse. And I have seen a quite number of SS customer comments on this. Comment 2: AT doesn't retip but if you send in your old cart they sell you same model at a reduced price or you can upgrade as well. Either way you save bucks, I think it is around 50 or 60% of new cost. |
Dear @tommypenngotti : This could be a good alternative over Andy or SS for your 205 MK3 cartridge repairs: http://vasnyinc.com/pages/repair.php R. |
@tommypenngotti Another one for you to verify the diamond, ufortunately i don’t have a pictures of the stylus for mk3 model, but the one i got is for mk4 model (p-mount has the same stylus profile and size). Maybe your stylus tip is damaged, indeed. You need some magnification to make sure, or inspection by the professional (it cost about $60). P.S. Don’t send it do Andy, because this is the guy who destroyed very rare cartridge for our experienced member jpjones, and refused to refund the money, never send Technics cartridges to him. Raul has no idea what he’s talking about. If you need an inspection just send to SoundSmith if you’re in USA |
@ tommypenngotti Email me a few pictures of your cartridge. Or just mail me your cartridge with $10 and I will take a look at it. If it can be done, I will get it back to you within 2 weeks. Like what rauliruegas said, visit my website http://vasnyinc.com/pages/repair.php |
@melm Mr. Carr sells cartridges and retips. He sells HIS cartridges and retips. SoundSmith is a competitor. They sell cartridges and retips of their cartridges and other people’s cartridges, including those of Carr. So what? Jonathan Carr is the most knowledgeable people on this forum and his honest comments on audiogon does not rise up his sales. He gave us the explnanation as a cartridge designer, sorry if you don’t get it. Peter Ledermann, the proprietor of SoundSmith, will happily give all of the considerations of which he’s aware about his services. Positive and negative. He often appears in these types of forums and provides what he knows. He does that WITHOUT disparaging the work and product and business ethics of competitors. He will answer emails; he will get on the phone with customers. His work on a variety of cartridges has been given great praise on forums like this one. Peter Ledermann is one of the best retippers and a designer of SoundSmith cartridges, in every single video he clearly explain how inferior is every MC design compared to MI design. Think about it as a nice marketing too. Sure, he will ansrew emails, this is a good business, we need a person like him to get broken cartridges back to life (especially the vintage ones with no support from the manufacturer) or to upgrade low cost cartridge with better parts (to change alluminum cantilever to ruby or boron, to change spherical tip to linecontact etc). But when it comes to a high-end cartridges like the ART-9 retipped/refurbished by him with third party parts, it does not mean to be better than the original cartridges designed by some other genious (we have many great cartridge designers). Still the unanswered question: What EXACTLY does Audio Technica offer by way of after-sales service to those purchasing from an authorized dealer? Is LP Gear an authorized dealer? If a US resident buys from a Japanese authorized dealer can he expect after-sales service? Does Audio Technica offer retips? If so, what is the cost? I am not from USA. If you buy from Japanese dealer you have to deal with Japanese dealer (i did, no problem). If you buy from US dealer you ask them to help you about any issue, including "repair" or "upgrade programm " , you name it (i did it, no problem, great support). Some manufacturers actually provides factory retip or refurbish by the original cartridge designer. @gibsonian AT doesn’t retip but if you send in your old cart they sell you same model at a reduced price or you can upgrade as well. Either way you save bucks, I think it is around 50 or 60% of new cost. Thanks for your comment, so they are exactly like ZYX in Japan. The only difference is that the price for ZYX can be $5000, but the price for AT ART9 is $1000 and when you send them your broken or worn cartridge you pay 40% less (about $600) - this is amazing deal if it’s true. Because you will get the original brand new cartridge for $600 and this is the Audio-Technica sound, not a SoundSmith or whatever sound. It means your next ART-9 is much cheaper than from grey market dealers. This is absolutely amazing, what is the reason to pay $350-650 to SoundSmith if you can get brand new factory sealed ART-9 for $600 ? Correct me if i’m wrong. |
Didn´t I tell you that Chakster knows it. Audio-Technica´s business seems to be in the same, highest level as Soundsmith´s and that is absolutely fantastic. If it really is true that they send you a new cartridge for reduced, actually ridiculous price ? Peter Ledermann´s is one of the very few is the business who takes it very seriously what he is offering for his customers. His passion is love for cartridges (music) since age of about four and secondly business (money). A true artist in every aspect. But he cannot make an ART9 better but different and close at best. He´s one of the very few genius´ but not a magician. |
@tommypennygotti anyone know how to post photos in the response area ?? You have to upload your photos somewhere like facebook, twitter for example, when they are uploaded open the phono and click on the mouse (right button) and select "copy image address". Then you can simpy add this link here or to make it looks better just select any word in your text and click the right button with a chain icon in the audiogon response window here, add link, click ok and it’s done. |
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