Deadlyvj..I checked out the Spec integrated. Its interior pics and spec sheet are impressive. Its too bad the power output is on the low side. The only other company that currently appears to put out a first class integrated is Jeff Rowland and his Continuum S2 with the Pascal amplifier with a higher power output. Its just a matter of time that other companies will produce high quality, high powered Class D integrated amps besides the low budget ones currently on the market. |
Audiozen, as we live in a world of audiophilic uncertainty, where the relationship between performance and pricepoint is not always clear, I tend to shy away from aprioristic "more than likely" based on specs alone.
If Mola-Mola Kaluga and Martin make it to RMAF, I might be able to listen to them and at least get a vague idea of what they do for living.
In general, I leave trouncing to the world of contact sports.
G. |
Its Marten..not Martin..there is a clear distinction between performance and price point..well executed designs with higher performance levels require much higher quality, more expensive parts with much lower defect rates which achieves greater performance levels..its called High End.. |
"Jdec... Educate yourself and go on the Marten website and read the PDF brochure on the M-Amp and the advanced design technology by Patrik Bostrom thats applied in the amp." (Audiozen)
Well, I just read the Martin pdf brochure on the m-amps, and it does not "educate" that much, it' s just the typical marketing on a brief overview, what every amplifier maker states in a few lines about the technical wonders of their products. If that's your kind of self education Audiozen, good for you.
Regards. |
I checked with US distributors about RMAF presence of Mola-Mola and Marten...
Mola-Mola Kaluga will be shown by On A Higher Note in Long's Peak on the mezanine level.
Sound Advice will not participate, and the Marten M amp is likely to be absent from the show.
G. |
It's been more than a month since this thread suffered a tragic death. I'm very interested in the D-sonic amps and it would be nice to hear back from those who have had these amps for a while now. |
Luigy39..Bare in mind that you are dealing with the Audio snobs who wouldn't waste their time taking seriously a Class D amp unless it costs $5K or more. These are the numb nuts that live in the "AUDIO MATRIX". Did they take the red pill or the blue pill? They will always fight very hard to defend the iconic Audio establishment brands and to make certain the big business Audio component machine stays in tact. Its the only way they can survive as commercial Audiophiles. I read a recent Audiophile's review on the Polk Forum site who purchased the D-Sonic M3-600M's this year and he was blown away after he burned them in for a month and played them through his KEF speakers. As I already indicated, the M3-600M's are Abletec amps designed by the world leader in Class D technology, Patrik Bostrom of Sweden. Bostrom is well known for designing the world's finest Class D amp, the M amp from Marten at $45K a pair. Just buy the M3-600M's. They are a steal for what they do and you can't go wrong at $1950.00 a pair. Give Dennis a call. |
Uhrn Audiozen, still living vicariously? Still no first hand findings?
Saluti, G. |
Audiozen I know you mean well. What is your first hand experience with D-Sonic amps? How about someone who actually has or heard these amps, sonically compare or or give their impressions. |
Aaahh...Pope Guido..excuse me your Eminence for not genuflecting before I enter your apartment at the Vatican. You are an easy set up..I knew you would be the first to reply as a response to my recent post..you follow me around like a lost hound dog with nothing better to do..did you run out of steam over your orgasm's with the Merrill Veritas amps?..I'm curious how much money your taking under the table from Merrill since he offered me $100.00 per customer I would bring to him as a private lead back in November 2011..I rejected his offer since I preserve my self dignity..after all, he has to survive at any cost..part of the AUDIO MATRIX which you ardently defend... |
Correction..Merrill's offer to me was in November 2012... |
Zen still hasn't recovered from his full frontal lobotomy. |
"Zen still hasn't recovered from his full frontal lobotomy."
And I'm certain that ALL of us would prefer a "bottle in front of me to a frontal lobotomy..."
Apologies to Tom Waits and/or Dorothy Parker...
-RW- |
Oh..did I upset the Pope Guido minions out there? First hand experience?..Its just as relevant to read on other Audiophile websites/forums of private owner's of D-Sonic amps and their first hand experiences with the amps.. I have read many threads on other sites besides 'Gon of D-Sonic owner's using Bostrom's Abletec amps and the reads are very positive. You should take the time to explore the other forums instead of just relying on threads on Audiogon. |
Gents, while Audiozen's humor can sometimes feel like a runaway freight train filled with "red herrings"... Let us continue this fun thread cheerily without excesses "ad hominem"... Hence, let us abandon references to cephalotropic procedures... as well as any potentially slanderous sillyness.... Or jesty pulling of Audiozenic legs on my part *grins!*
Now returning to our previously scheduled programming....
I have not read the review on the Pulk mentioned by Audiozen... Audiozen, if you can post the URL, I definitely will read it. From your remarks about it, it is clear that the reviewer has done at least one thing very right... He used the amps for 4 full months before offering final findings... Far too many audiophiles are hopelessly impatient, and give final findings well before a component has stabilized... And trust me... class D devices are real bears to reach the points where they deliver their very best.
To the best of my knowledge, there are currently three readily available sources of Abletech in the US, neither of which I have listened to... One of them being D-Sonics, on selected amps... The problem is that this manufacturer does not disclose whether he is using Abletech, Pascal, or anything else... The consumer must try to guess by matching power/current specs on the D-Sonic web site with AbleTech and Pascal specs and try to make a best guess... or find somewhere some pics that reveal the amp's internals.
The other source of Abletech amps seems to be TEAC/Esoteric with some of their entry-level amps... But here is the proverbial fly in the ointment... TEAC/Esoteric seems to be in transition... They seem to have transfered their Esoteric and possibly other consumer lines to the Integra division of Onkyo as of early October... TEAC/Esoteric was absent from RMAF, and I have no idea what Onkyo will be doing with these brands.
Marten amps have only token presence in the US at this time... There exists a distributor in California who appears to have marginal knowledge about the product, with one known customer in Southern CA... No I have not heard the amp, ence no conjectures nor comments about performance.
Now moving onto Pascal... Once again, there are reasons to believe that D-Sonics uses Pascal in some devices... But D-Sonic will neither confirm nor deny... Reminds me of Caspar Weinberger. I have not heard the amp(s)... Hence no findings.
Of higher price are the new Rowland M525 bridgeable amp at $4500 per chassis, and the Rowland Continuum S2 integrated selling in the $9K region. I have not heard M525, but listened several times to Continuum S2 during RMAF... Wonderful device for resolution and musicality... Leagues above the original Continuums based on ICEpower... But not having had Continuum S2 in my system, I cannot tell how its sound would compare to any Ncore amps... Let alone Abletech, which I have not heard at all.
And now Ncore NC1200 and derivates... besides the $12K Merrill Veritas monos that I have already reviewed, there are several other amplification systems that have adopted various forms of Ncore NC1200-based technology...
Mola-Mola Kaluga... To be released by CES 2014. $15.9K monoblocks... Heard at RMAF driving YG speakers... Extremely resolving and musical. Fascinating devices... Worth while examining in detail. I have created an entire new thread on these... See:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1382836646&openmine&zzGuidocorona&4&5#Guidocoronasted
Rowland M825 stereo ($32K) and M925 monos ($58K)(. Far from being basic implementations of NC1200, these are no holds barred assaults to what is possible by strting with Ncore technology in the output stage and surrounding them with state of the art I/O, power management, and power regulation. M925 is my own reference amp and it does sound amazing... I keep a diary of sort on Audiogon about my experience with it. See:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1369518273&openmine&zzGuidocorona&4&5#Guidocorona
Audience WavePower appears to be a promising design, and is in preproduction... Like the Rowland designs, it utilizes transformer coupling in the input stages ($18K)... Sorry I have not heard it yet.
ATSAH by Acoustic Imagery in the UK... THe least expensive of NCORE amps at $9K... I have not heard it yet and have no first hand information about internals, hence... I am not qualified to comment.
Bel Canto uses custom modules that are derived from Ncore NC1200 in its new Black System... Very nice sound and worth examining... Still in preproduction I believe... Sorry I do not remember the exact price, but it is a very unique combination of amplification and signal processing that addresses the market well above $20K
Grimm Audio showcased at RMAF its new powered speakers... Each speaker is powered by three Ncore-derived modules... Interesting... But a little peaky in their suite... I suspect the speakers may have been just off the factory floor.
Bottomline... prices for new class D amplification appears to range from under $1K to almost $60K... My general impression is that what I heard from Ncore and Pascal this far tends for me to be musically and sonically preferable to what I usually hear from classic class A, class A/B, old class D, or tube designs... But there is a lot that I have not heard yet.
G. |
Pope Guido..no need to write a long winded book every time you post a reply. Phew! We all know your a reviewer of sorts. Eric Lichte with Stereophile did a report on the Marten M amps last winter after hearing them and stated they sound like very powerful tube amps and have the voice of Class A solid state amps. Regarding D-Sonic, I mentioned earlier that Dennis Deacon told me in conversation that his top amp is a Pascal and his M3-600M's are Abletec's. He only admitted this after I emailed him pics of the amps with the tops off disclosing the word Abletec stamped on the circuit board and matching the pics to the models on the Pascal and Abletec sites. |
Thank you Audiozen for encouraging me to contain the volume of my writing output... As you kindly point out, in quasi Zdanovian censoring zeal, there is no need for me to be expansive... I could be mercifully telegraphic instead,... If I enjoyed that form of terseness, of course, so to spare your limited patience. Unfortunately, I do not tend to the epigrammatic, but much prefer to freely share with my friends what I am excited about, and have experienced first hand, or at least I have learned from primary sources... Hence you might sadly expect my future scribblings to be comparably detailed and similarly tedius.
AudioPax vobiscum!
Papa Aloysius XXIV
(a.k.a. Guido) |
Would like to hear more impressions from those who own or have heard more of these newer Class D amps.
The huge price range for amps built around the same common core modules is an interesting thing in of itself. |
I have been meaning to put up another chapter in my continuing evaluation of the M2-600 D-Sonic mono amps I put into play back in January. While originally a long-shot purchase after the sudden death of a well-loved pair of Atma-Sphere early 90's vinage OTLs. While I wish I could have finished by now, the project has encountered so many issues that I have not been able to keep the rest of my system stable long enough for any kind of meaningful comparison.
To date, I have written several installments concerning changes I have had to make to either my system or record-playing pre-processes in order to get the best out of them. Many of these changes were made in response to the amps' extreme accuracy and transparency spotlighting upstream conditions that had previously been below my threshold of tolerance, if not notice with the other amps. I have not yet begun to describe how they really sound with different musical selections. Nor have I addressed sound-staging or imaging abilities except for early impressions. Neither timbre nor frequency fidelity and extention have been reported yet. I still don't know if I will keep them, but now that I have stopped making changes to my system, I can soon decide.
I would like to continue to add to his thread but I am concerned I, too, may be attacked for the length of my posts. I know that I do tend to go on at times, but I am not so skilled a writer in the ways of imparting a lot of information with few enough words to satisfy certain other conributors' need for brevity.
Perhaps those who are made offended, angered, disgusted, sickened, challenged, or scared by longer postings could just look away or click 'back' on their browsers when they see so much text. But, please don't start attacking others. I really appreciate the time and effort Guido makes when trying to describe the indescribable to the rest of us. I have not found a dealer I can trust since Salon I Audio closed ten years ago. I was spoiled rotten by the owner for so long I never cared to do much of my own research before buying any equipment. Now, all I have is the internet, and I have sometimes spent hundreds of hours reading about components before purchase. I don't recall too making many bad decisions in life based on too much information.
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Audiozen, there you go again.
If Guido is the "Pope" then you must be "King Henry VIII"!
No one here is following your "proclamations".
You make no sense with your statements that D-sonic is the best, because it uses two different class d tech. Are they both the best? OK, lets say it is the one in the Marten amps. I quote you "the world's finest Class D amp, the M amp from Marten at $45K a pair." Oh, ONLY $45,000 a PAIR. Is that all. Was it not you who ridiculed the Veritas and the Mola-Mola for being SO expensive. That is not a question.
You seem to want your cake and eat it too.
Why are you attacking Guido. He has said he would like to hear the D-Sonic amps sometime.
Is It because you are afraid of him comparing them and speaking the truth of what he hears. That is sure the way it is coming across.
I also would like to hear the D-Sonic sometime. As others. I have heard so far, the DAC, Spectron, ARC, Bel Canto, Mola-Mola, Veritas, DIY NC400 and a few more.
|
Hifial..The Veritas amps are a rip off for what they cost. Period! You get just over four pounds of Ncore product in each mono block. Merrill does not make available at all interior shots of his amps. He wants you to ignore whats behind the curtain. The Marten M amps designed by Bostrom are in a completely different league. Each mono block weighs 100 pounds due to their massive transformers and large capacitor banks combined with the most advanced Class-D technology on the market. Patrik Bostrom is a force to be reckoned with and its just a matter of time that Audiophiles will recognize that he is on top of the Class-D game globally. |
McBuddah, you got the stage and my attention at a minimum. :^)
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Mcbuddah, please take as long a post as you need to describe your impressions of any equipment. Please ignore the talking head/s.
Thank you for the update. Please give us more once you have additional time hearing them in a stable system. Also can you give us what your system is made up of.
Looking foreword to an unbiased impression from someone who has ACTUALLY HEARD them. |
Audiozen, or should I call you the Czar, I am sure the Marten M Amps sound great, Oh wait I never heard them yet so now I am talking like you. OK, what I mean is I expect them to perform well, and they should at 45,000 a pair regardless the brand. I respect the Marten brand.
As far as the Veritas it is VERY obvious that you have a real bad case of AGENDA.
Merrill is not the only OEM that does not want others to know what they have done to their product or allow inside shots.
And I can assure you it is not just the a case and the two stock modules and nothing else done.
Do not ask me as I do not know the details. But I do know there is more to it.
You mention how the Marten is so heavy and infer that the Veritas is not and so because of that it is inferior. But then by that would not the D-Sonic be so.
Again you want your cake and eat too.
Look, in the world of Audiophile you can not always compare apples to apples anymore.
I think it is most telling that you make most of these statements as fact or as first hand experience but in almost all the cases you have NOT actually heard what ever you praise or put dawn.
Sorry but you can not hear specifications and technology on paper. Too many times the best on paper did not sound the best upon actually hearing it. It still must convey the emotion of the music.
Lets call a truce. You make no more disparaging remarks about the Veritas or Father, oops, Pope Guido and I. I will then have no reason to correct your statements.
But seriously lets try and move on from here, OK. |
Hi Al, actually, Merrill has been pretty forthright in sharing Veritas technical detail... Short of revealing internal mechanical dampening matherials and methods, he gave me enough information for me to wax poetic about Veritas internals for about 1500 words in the PFO review... No wonder King AudioHenry VIII (oops... meant Audiozen) is now considering censorial procedures to decapitate my excessive prose in the most horrific of ways...
Audiopax vobiscum!
Papa Guido XXIV |
So, is there another forum where I can go for constructive information? |
Mcbuddah, I would really really love to hear what you have to say about the M3 amps from D-Sonic. |
Luigy, your best bet is to be patient until McBuddah is able to post more D-Sonic findings.. In the meantime, here is the D-Sonic review mentioned by Audiozen:
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?142204-d-Sonic-M2-600M-monoblocks-amp-Pics.
Regards, G. |
Thank you for the link Guidocorona, It looks promising. I look forward to reading more from McBuddah on his findings in the near future. How about you Guidocorona, is there a way for you to tests these? |
Hi Luigy, my review projects are done in sequence, and take quite long.... Usually a few months each. I have a couple of amps and a couple of wire looms in my inbasket already . But at some point it would be interesting doing a DSonic amp... Will it be a Pascal-based or an AbleTech-based device?
Saluti, Guido |
Assuming different modules used, like ABletec or Pascal or Icepower, make a difference in the sound, which I would expect to be a reasonable assumption, it bothers me that D-Sonic is not more forthcoming about what goes into what models that they sell.
If it were the case that D-Sonic had an identifiable "house sound" that they always target, it would matter less to me, but I would still want to know what is the same and what is different technically.
I can see where this policy would make it harder for someone to do a meaningful review of value.
My guess is D-sonic is marketing on price/vale mainly and in fact may do quite well as a result.
SOme more user reviews would be nice. User reviews where user opens up the box and identifies what is inside specifically even more so. |
Yea, I guess what I am trying to say about the Triangles is that they are very fast, transparent and neutral sounding and do what they do extremely well. They would certainly allow the inherent sound of the vintage Marantz to shine through. What they (small Titus model specifically) will not do, is much below 50hz or so. A very nice match to any 20 watt SS receiver. I have a spare yamaha 20 watt receiver that I have used them with and gotten very good results. I think the somewhat warmer sounding Marantz would be even better. |
Hi Mapman, you point out the potential problem exactly... While I evaluate the audible performance of a device purely on the merits of, well... Its audible performance, there are a number of components to any of my published scribblings.... And one of the components is an -- as musch as possible thorough -- ddescription of internals, based on my own informal transcription of my recorded discussion of published/publishable technical features, that I have had with the primary source... Usually this being the designer or the manufacturer.
I disregard completely any third party information that I am not able to confirm/corroborate from an open and willing primary source... Hence, third party reports of internal features are cheerily ignored... Nor do I go spelunking inside a component without written authorization by the manufacturer.
In general, doing a review of a mystery box is something that would leave me a little disconcerted. G. |
Beyond McBuddah, anyone else owning up to owning D-Sonic amps?
Your impressions versus other amps! |
C'mon...we know you're out there!!!!!! |
Does anybody know the difference between the Abletech and Pascal designs?
My main concern is audio quality, 60% music and 40% movies, TV shows, etc.
I sent Dennis an e-mail regarding the M3-1500's 3 channel Amp and the M3-1200's Stereo Amp as these would be my 2 options, and He responded that all of his amps have the same sound signature and that he doesn't discuss the specific technology used on his amps, fair enough.
Maybe somebody here knows which design would be better for music and what technology is used on each of the amps mentioned above? My speakers are the Gallo 3.5 |
Well, in lieu of actually hearing the vendor is saying they both will sound pretty much alike, FWIW.
Maybe. Time will tell for sure I suppose. How bad can any of them sound? I suspect they all sound pretty good. Generous return policies/satisfaction guarantees always help, especially when so much is still unknown. |
Luigy, I venture to conjecture that perhaps 2-way D-Sonics amps might be optimized for music... Let us know what you find out. G. |
after having had the amps a few months now, I think, I've found that they're extremely powerful, detailed and revealing. some of my cds now sound horrible, while the better ones sound even better. you just don't hear the guitar, you hear the finger strumming the string, that kind of deal. on the advice of another goner, I hooked up my old nht25i s to the amp, just for the hell of it. I was scared to do so, because the amp is 600wpc. he convinced me it was ok. so I did. ho-leeee-crap! that little nht opened up like you wouldn't believe. as far as on my genesis apm-1s, the sound is just unbelievable. huge-mongus. do yourself a favor and try one out. one last thing: I have to disagree with people who say class d sounds like tubes. they don't. not even close. but they are wonderful!!!! cheers. Jorge. |
Jorge's testimonial is not unlike what I experienced with my first and current Class D amps.
If that sounds appealing to the buyer, I suspect one has little to lose.
Class D and the better tube amp combos I have heard tend to have a lot of similarities, but its a stretch to say that Class D sounds like tubes or vice versa.
ANy speaker that attempts to deliver extended bass out of a small box should benefit the most in general from a good Class D amp. NHT probably qualifies.
It generally requires a large and expensive quality tube amp with MANY tubes to accomplish the same that way. Other speaker designs that are easier to drive are best suited for most tube amps. Some like some planars, might do best either way. |
Sorry, Jorge, I have not quite understood which D-Sonic amp you have purchased... Please let us know. G. |
Very interesting, Jorge!
Thanks for posting. What amp (s) did you use before the M3 1200S?
Can you compare them to the D-Sonic? I'm using a ARC VT 100 mk2 right now. I love the amp but 16 tubes can be a PITA. I'm going to try D-Sonic so I appreciate your info a lot. Cheers, Mikko |
yeah, Im sorry. reading back at my posts I can see why. its the M3 1200S. 600 WPC stereo model. sorry for the corn-fusion. |
Mikha: I was using 70wpc primaluna monos. for my taste, I just needed more power to drive my apm 1s. those amps are fantastic, everything one loves about tubes. the d-sonic is just much more powerful. so the dynamics are, understandably, far and beyond 70 watts, of course. and compared to the parasound a-21, although another great piece, which I sold years ago, the d-sonic is still the better amp for me. But the parasound was nowhere in the same league as far as detail. im now researching which preamp to mate with it. I know I can do much better than the parasound p-3. so yes, the upgrading continues as I look for perhaps a tube or class d preamp. I hope that helps. |
Jorge: thanks again! I'm very curious now. I will try them out next year.
I have a Coincident Statement Line Stage. It's amazing! World Class.
I strongly recommend it! Cheers Mikko |
" the d-sonic is just much more powerful. so the dynamics are, understandably, far and beyond 70 watts, of course. and compared to the parasound a-21, although another great piece, which I sold years ago, the d-sonic is still the better amp for me"
Power and watts speak for themselves. WHen you need it, you need it. USually the more, the better.
Hi eff Class D amps in general provide power/watts in a small and one would think relatively affordable package compared to big costly heavy monster amps needed prior.
I suspect one might always nitpick, but if a good amp with lots of power/watts is what's called for, most any modern decent Class D amp may be the solution.
There is a big difference between a scenario where an amp is challenged to drive speakers and one where it does it effortlessly, as these high power Class Ds in general are capable of. A lot of the other good things we like about good sound just seems to go along with that, detail, imaging, etc. Overall system synergies and toanl balance, etc. is still something to deal with, but if the amp is up to the task of driving the speakers, that opens up many other ways to address as needed.
Little down side in trying on of these things I think if high power and efficiency is what is needed, whatever might be inside. I'd rather know, but in general the basic benefits should exist with most similar spec'ed amp boards used I would think. Tweaks from there might be different?
THat's what I'm thinking. I'm curious if others agree or not? |
The thing I wonder is, if one is in the market for a "good" Class D amp, why would you not try a less expensive solution like D-Sonic first before investing traditional big bucks in an amp? Part of the benefit is the size and efficiency of Class D versus a traditional monster amp. Yes, there is a lot of new technology still that goes into it, but a lot can seemingly be saved by not having to have a big massive box with large heat sinks, etc. in order to get similar performance because the Class D is so much more efficient. THat should translate to lower cost over time as these things become more common for use in cases where monster amps were needed prior. |
mikha: that is one gorgeous amp. please report back when you get your class d, whichever you choose. |
Has anyone compared single ended vs. balanced? Does it make a difference with the D-sonic M3 amps?
Thanks, |
for me, the balanced mode is far better. |
