Did Amir Change Your Mind About Anything?

If someone tells me I’ve said something "fallacious," I don’t take that as a put down. They are doing me a service -- helping direct me to what is false. Because I prefer not to believe or claim false things. @amir_asr then goes to explain why it is fallacious. Those who interpret this as a personal attack just prove Amir’s point that some here are not interested in facts. (You don't agree with his argument that it's fallacious? Fine. Then rebut him. But don't take it personally.)

The test of this would be to point out to Amir that he has made a mistake and see if he takes it personally or if he tries to verify it or rebut it -- with facts. Dispassion is the mark of science. If one cannot live up to that virtue, then they are not being scientific.

We’re all after audio quality, right?

Audio quality costs money. Any money one is saved by successful tests and measurements, and borne out in listening, is money which can be directed to the true weak links rather than the false weak links.

That’s how Amir advances the audiophile project.

Who's Amir?

@painter24 

Thank you for your service in terms of public health, and my condolences on the health issues you face. 

However...this...

I wish I had nothing else to think about other than sitting around measuring bits of hifi, but my sense of public duty, and service to the public under our collective care, for me is part of my belief system, hence where I work.

...seems like a bit of a moralizing dig at Amir.   "sitting around measuring bits of hifi."   A suggestion that his spending time on audio gear is less noble than what your "sense of public duty" compels you to spend your time on.   I don't know if you meant it that way, but that's how it comes across.

If so: that same "dig" could be made about every single person in this forum and in this hobby.  "Don't you have BETTER, more noble ways to spend your time/money than posting on an audio forum, or on the audio/music hobby?"

You find listening to music as your getaway, your way of spending your spare time.  Amir or others enjoy understanding and measuring audio equipment, and sharing that information with others who are interested.  Such is the variety of life.

One can just say "I'm not really interested in spending my time measuring equipment.  It's not something I'm that interested in."

That's pretty much the case for me.  I'll leave that to others more interested and technically inclined than I am do that.

@mahgister

I dont understand why people are so polarized... With agressivity...

This is a good point. I saw an old polarizing topic revisited in the news recently. Remember the old meme that was going around with the dress, about whether the dress was white and gold or black and blue? It really got people upset because their perception was obvious to them, and others claiming to see something completely different almost feels like a blatant lie. It’s a challenge to basic reality that’s plainly evident. It feels frustrating. (As for that one, I never took a side because the photo looked odd, like the color and contrast was intentionally ambiguous so I felt like I was being set up.)

I feel some of this frustration with stereo interaural crosstalk screwing up the tone with center panned images. I just went to the Pacific Audiofest and heard a bunch of otherwise very exquisite systems just completely ignoring this problem, with everybody acting like there’s nothing wrong. I hear it so clearly that it’s mind boggling to me. It’s a huge flaw in terms of what I expect from a high end system. How can people put up with this in something that’s had so much effort and expense put in to it to approach perfection?

I think it’s kind of like the dress. They don’t interpret the comb filtering the same way I do, so it comes across completely different perceptually to them, perhaps as a sense of depth, 3D dimensionality. I just move off center when I want to hear the center panned vocals or instrumentals sound better. This works for everybody because now I’m not taking up the "prime" center seats at the show.

You make a good point relating this quarrel about imposing a perspective over the other valid perspective...

The two perspective are valid in their own terms but it seems i am, if not the only one, one among very few, pointing why the two groups, subjectivist and objectivists, are wrong TOGETHER, focussing together on the gear component...

Audio is not first about the gear market hyper magical claims validity or about their debunking by verified measures versus claims ( which is a good thing to know for sure thanks to Amir hobby devotion )..

Audio is about first and last psycho-acoustic complex field and about speakers/room acoustic...It is not about upgrades with market publicity claims and subsequent debunking articles... My two dreamed revolutionary piece of gear by the way were created by acoustician , Dr.Gorike for my headphone, and Dr.Choueri for the dac...( i own only the headphone, the dac must wait for now 🤣😊😉 )

Then for me acoustic rule the game...Not electric engineers...

Especially nowadays when anybody can buy a basically good system at relatively low price in a mature audio industry ... The claims of the gear marketers and their falsification by Amir is interesting but SECONDARY completely for audio real experience which is related completely to mastery of acoustic basic...HERE WE LEARN HOW TO LISTEN...Nowhere else..

And to tune a room at low cost we need EARS....No debunking of hearing is needed here... Because here we learn how to listen with acoustic experiments in a room designed for our SPECIFIC BIASES...Small room acoustic is for a specific owner not for a crowd...And who had the money to invest 100,000 for an acoustical pro job ?

I respect much and more Amir effort and appreciate his findings because they can be useful but i dislike many of his groupies imposing on us meaningless claims, about my hearings so called limits which are sterile common place useless facts, among rightful facts about measured technicalities ... I dislike people here insulting Amir too by the way ...

Once this is said , audio purchase cannot be made by the chart inspection of any measures, we must take a listen too, and a room cannot be designed by an acoustician pro, save if you are very rich, then your hearing biases are your main tools.... They served me well and my system was astounding for me at peanuts costs ( not perfect but with no comparison at all between before and after)...People who pay many , many ten thousand dollars for their gear dont like to read that, i dont know why ? Sorry but acoustic matter not the price tag...😁😊

If i know how to modify the ASW/LV ratio to please me in my room , i dont need arrogant people to say that i need to be blind tested...

So imperfect it was no other system i listened to at any price beat my room soundfield,  and those who own systems that rival or beat speakers/room  rest assured did not pay just 10 times more than mine but  way much more...it was enough for me... Especially at under 1000 bucks price...

@mahgister

I dont understand why people are so polarized... With agressivity...

This is a good point. I saw an old polarizing topic revisited in the news recently. Remember the old meme that was going around with the dress, about whether the dress was white and gold or black and blue? It really got people upset because their perception was obvious to them, and others claiming to see something completely different almost feels like a blatant lie. It’s a challenge to basic reality that’s plainly evident. It feels frustrating. (As for that one, I never took a side because the photo looked odd, like the color and contrast was intentionally ambiguous so I felt like I was being set up.)

I feel some of this frustration with stereo interaural crosstalk screwing up the tone with center panned images. I just went to the Pacific Audiofest and heard a bunch of otherwise very exquisite systems just completely ignoring this problem, with everybody acting like there’s nothing wrong. I hear it so clearly that it’s mind boggling to me. It’s a huge flaw in terms of what I expect from a high end system. How can people put up with this in something that’s had so much effort and expense put in to it to approach perfection?

I think it’s kind of like the dress. They don’t interpret the comb filtering the same way I do, so it comes across completely different perceptually to them, perhaps as a sense of depth, 3D dimensionality. I just move off center when I want to hear the center panned vocals or instrumentals sound better. This works for everybody because now I’m not taking up the "prime" center seats at the show.