DO CABLES REALLY MATTER?

It's pretty funny reading some comments on here. My really good friend has MBL speakers upstairs and Raidho downstairs. We've changed cables, including power cords and it's easy to hear the changes on both systems. 

@prof. I been in a position to,demo a lot of stuff without having to buy it. Lol so I got to start at the bottom and hear a wide range of stuff. I think I have a pretty good ear. I do believe the gear is way more important than cabling. 

I’m not ONE OF THOSE GUYS! I said what I said because vintage gear sounds different. Cables make less of a difference in vintage gear. Vintage gear has a nice full sound.  Vintage and newer age stuff both have THIER plus and minus. Gear doesn’t have to be expensive to sound good. I only mentioned what I have and have demoed to give folks an idea of how many diffferent Cable brands and equipment brands I have experience with. Also if you are a vintage gear guy I don’t have much experience with that stuff so for me I Don’t have much in common Audio wise to share with you. I have been blessed to have expensive gear but that doesn’t mean I look down on cheaper stuff. Anyway, on some of these forums you have guys that attack the other guys who own expensive cables and equipment. I’m not saying cheap gear is bad I started with the cheap stuff but the more expensive stuff bettered the cheap stuff. I don’t have time for The Audio envy crowd so feel how you feel.  Anyway you took what I said and ASSumed a whole lot. Whatever. Enjoy your vintage gear and I will enjoy my gear. Best wishes. 

calvinj
@geoffkait I’m not showing off by telling you what my gear is and how much I paid for it. No disrespect but not knowing what gear you running I’m a lot less inclined to value what you say. That’s just my opinion. I don’t know what basevlevel you are at. I was able to have Allnic, veloce, classe, high fidelity, Kubala sosna, Audio research, revel, Sonus faber, Vienna acoustics , clarity Cable, Clarus cables, atlas mavros, audioquest in my system at different times through the last 12 years so my context for what great sound is maybe different based on my ability to have long demos to well respected gear. Any way without knowing your gear I’m less inclined to pay attention. When I hadn’t heard better I did not know better.

>>>>Whatever.

@calvinj so your one of those guys!  It only can sound good and be transparent if it's new and expensive. 

I heard  a pair of vitavox speakers with 300B tube amps and line stage and phonostage all built by the same guy. All tube stuff. The front end was a clearaudio goldfinger on a clearaudio linear tracker on a verdier.  The soundstage was like a cinesphere but still with pinpoint imaging. 
Pretty much the best sound I ever heard. 1950's speakers, amp tech from the 40's on vinyl which has been around forever.  Just because it's vintage doesn't mean it's not good. 

calvinj,
I am certainly not here to tell you or anyone you shouldn't enjoy buying and listening to whatever cables you like.  Glad you are so enthusiastic about your set up.

I'm mostly representing the reasons why I don't apportion much of my mental energy and money to cabling.   I have enough in this hobby I'm obsessive about as it is!

@prof thanks for sharing you have some great gear. It’s should sound good no matter what. Lol. The best system I’ve heard is the Raidho 5.1 with all soulution electronics and anzus cabling. A guy had a home listening cottage and Raidho came in to set it all up for him. You got some well respected gear. I also believe in spending money on the best gear you can get before spending on cables. My Gato speakers are not well known but I go and listen to a lot of the big name speakers and my speaker competes to me with big boys up to the 25 to 30k range. They have a really clear open see through midrange and tight bass. The treble is the trick though. I use a Cable called clarity natural and it makes the highs sound airy to my ears. My speakers are my last ones. I’m never changing them. I had the revel studio 2 before these but I’m happy I went to Gato Audio out of Denmark. My Dac is made by the brother of the chip maker for oppo they make the Sabre chip. The amp kraudio va 900 is the baby version of the kronzilla. It’s sounds less tubey. It sounds closer to audio research sound wise but with a little more texture. I think you have a great set up. I know you are not a Cable guy but I. My system my cables add just a little of what my ear likes. I’m not putting your point of view down. In my system it works for me. Just keep enjoying your stuff. I only ask what you had in your system because honestly if your gear is not at a certain level it can only perform so well. On cheap or poor speakers cables won’t make much difference. It’s not the case with you you have pretty good gear. @geoffkait I’m not showing off by telling you what my gear is and how much I paid for it. No disrespect but not knowing what gear you running I’m a lot less inclined to value what you say. That’s just my opinion. I don’t know what basevlevel you are at. I was able to have Allnic, veloce, classe, high fidelity, Kubala sosna, Audio research, revel, Sonus faber, Vienna acoustics , clarity Cable, Clarus cables, atlas mavros, audioquest in my system at different times through the last 12 years so my context for what great sound is maybe different based on my ability to have long demos to well respected gear. Any way without knowing your gear I’m less inclined to pay attention. When I hadn’t heard better I did not know better. @prof enjoy the music.

Hey, no problem. I’m friends with Keyser Soze.

calvinj
@geoffkait what does your system consists of. I’ve seen all these comments but don’t know your system.

>>>>What’s the difference? What good would it do you to know my system? It certainly wouldn’t change my comments. I’m not a big fan of showing off how expensive one’s system is to try to prove a point, like some people. I’ve heard my share of expensive systems that sound like crap. Did I answer your question?

I’ll show you mine if you show me yours. 😳 Please don’t hit me over the head with your Kubala Sosnas. 

calvinj,

My gear includes:

Thiel’s flagship 3.7 speakers (and also Thiel 2.7s).

MBL 121 Radialstrahler speakers

Sources: Raspberry Pi for music server streaming of ripped CDs/Tidal to Benchmark Dac 2L (and a Bechmar Dac1).

Transrotor Fat Bob S turntable, Benz Micro Ebony L cartridge.

Into Conrad Johnson Premier 16LS2 pre-amp.

Conrad Johnson Premier 12 140w/side tube monoblock amplifiers.

FYI: The Thiel 3.7s and MBL speakers are world class in terms of resolution (see any reviews of the 3.7 or MBLs - Jonathan Valin of TAS who reviews SOTA speakers has touted the MBL tweeter as among the world’s best for years - my MBLs use the same mids and tweeters as on their most eye-wateringly expensive systems).

As I’ve been wanting to downsize from the Thiel 3.7s a bit, I’ve kept an eye out for possible replacements for the last two years. Among the speakers I’ve auditioned Raidho, the latest Audio Physic, the newest Focal Kanta 2, the latest Paradigm Persona speakers that everyone is raving about for their beryllium drivers, newer Monitor Audio, Revel, the Magico A3, Joseph Audio etc. None have obviously shown up the Thiels or MBL in terms of resolution. When I get home from auditioning those speakers and play the same tracks on my system, I hear all the details I heard with those speakers...and usually those other speakers were auditioned with high end audiophile cables.

@oldschool1948 I only do digital as well and I use tidal as well. Thanks for your comments. I’m demoing a whole loom of Kubala sosna elation cables right now that are crazy expensive but they sound really good. Gives music improvements in soundstage and transparency.  I also go the high fidelity ct-2 it also open the music up. It has a quicker leading edge to the music and sounds quicker than most other cables. I’m going to be adding an ultimate power cable today and mix and match somethings. I started this thread to really see if others were hearing what I’ve heard through the years and that’s a difference in cabling. Depending on tastes the difference can be positive and negative. @geoffkait what does your system consists of. I’ve seen all these comments but don’t know your system. Just a question @prof what is your system consisting of. If you run vintage gear you might hear less of a difference as opposed to a more digital system. List your gear. I have gato FM6 from Denmark, Kr Audio va900 Integrated, Resonessence Mirus Pro Dac, Sony modwright 5400 tube modded CD player Melco n1a server, Rel 212 se, I use a mix of High fidelity, atlas mavros and clarity Cable cabling.  List your stuff 

The new Audiogon. No debates. No discussions. Just dogmatic 🐶 statements in all caps. An invitation to a dogma fight. That’s just swell.

As a person somewhat new to digital music, I was very skeptical at first; however, I've learned that cables do matter.  Streaming Tidal in my system (NAD M12/M22 v2/Innuos Zenith MK2, Tannoy 8 dcti), I compared my stock USB, Ethernet, and power cables against moderately priced better cables of each.  For my comparison, I started with all stock cables.  I compared Tidal playing through the Zenith against Tidal playing through a Squeezebox Duet and through the NAD BluOS module.

Switching back and forth, I noticed an immediate overall improvement in SQ via the Zenith.  From that point, I replaced the stock USB cable in the Zenith, and noticed an immediate but subtle improvement in SQ.  Next, I replaced the Zenith's power cable - same result, immediate but subtle improvement in SQ.  Next, I replaced the Ethernet cable - same result.

The better cables provided a better sound stage and I could hear more music, which leads me to believe that better cable provide more digital information. The better cables provided a warmer, tighter sound than my stock cables. In short, the music just sounds better to me, and others who heard my system before and after.

Yeah trolls usually don’t know they are trolls. As far as automated responses go. Quick and easy to read. Bumble bees bumble. Lol anyway enjoy talking yourself into circles with all that MARVIN THE MARTIAN TALK! 

calvinj OP
No it’s actually a blocked shot. Some of us have excellent hearing and can hear a difference. It’s makes a huge difference in some of our systems to our ears. We will do what we do while you stick to homemade monoprice or whatever.

>>>>>If it looks like a troll, acts like a troll and walks like a troll....it’s a troll. 

" And some of is have plenty of experience hearing super high end systems, and own highly resolving systems ourselves"

Those super high end systems would sound better with super high end cable. Just saying... 

calvinj wrote:

Anyway I don’t care about the debates.

*creates thread: DO CABLES REALLY MATTER?*

If your system is resolving and transparent. You will hear a difference in cabling.  Maybe you like it maybe you don’t but you will hear a difference. 

I'm thinking calvinj at this point has automated his responses, set on "repeat," though the AI aspect is lacking as it doesn't seem to recognize and respond to previous human responses.

;-)

No it’s actually a blocked shot. Some of us have excellent hearing and can hear a difference. It’s makes a huge difference in some of our systems to our ears. We will do what we do while you stick to homemade monoprice or whatever.

Well, I guess I’ll come right out and say it. Many folks who have excellent hearing, who have resolving and transparent systems, don’t hear the difference between cables. That’s what makes this topic so interesting. You probably thought this was going to be a slam dunk, right?

Anyway I don’t care about the debates. I’m into the sound the music. The ear candy. When I can hear the texture of the horn the air of the flute and the decay coming off a cymbal. That matters to me. I don’t care how they do it. As long as they do. 

Define resolving and define transparent. 😬 Define you. Define hear. Define difference. 😳

If your system is resolving and transparent. You will hear a difference in cabling.  Maybe you like it maybe you don’t but you will hear a difference. 

Hey, whatever. Dude.

Geoffkait,
Perhaps you could read what I posted. I warned about having too much imagination, not about having no imagination at all.
Cheers!

"First they came for the cables, and I did not speak out—

Because I did not want the trouble.
... ... ... ...

Then they came for me—and there was only Julian Hirsch left to speak for me."

And some of is have plenty of experience hearing super high end systems, and own highly resolving systems ourselves.

(Hope that wasn't too complicated)

Ricred1 finally a voice of reason. Some systems are not made of constructed  upon which someone can hear a difference. There are audible difference in cables. Some can cause a wider soundstage, better bass, more airy treble, a more open midrange, some are more forward than others. Some systems are not as transparent or resolving as others. Some people have never really experienced higher end systems for long periods of time to even be able to have a decent reference point. Anyway I think some guys made it too complicated. 

@ricred1 
the rest of your post that I agree with 100%....

It's actually pretty simple...if you hear a difference with cables that you prefer than purchase them. If you don't hear a difference or you hear a difference that's not to your liking, don't purchase them. Audio is about preferences based on the context of the system and room. That includes speakers, amps, preamps, cables, and everything else.

The ridiculous part is the time spent arguing over what other people hear....and, of course, people who believe they hear what others tell them they should be hearing, and not to forget those who claim that people who do not hear the prescribed changes have either weak systems, poor hearing, or both, and finally those who claim it is scientifically impossible to hear differences in cables with like LCR properties.

A good game of dodgeball would have a better chance of sorting out differences in opinions about cables than the discussions of this thread.

Scarcastic?....maybe a little

Apriori, cables MUST matter because 1) there is an industry with many entrant manufacturers and dealers 2) there are many customers of these products and 3) the interest level at times to discuss this very topic outweighs the very activity of listening to the damn things.

Who cares what they sound like when they make money and use up valuable time in this forum?

That's why they matter.

mitch2,

I hear a little sarcasm in your comments.  I had Wireworld Platinum XLR cables and compared them to Audioquest Fire. There is a clear difference between the two. Wireworld is a neutral cable in my system. The Audioquest Fire is a more forward cable, where the lead singer is clearly pushed a little forward.  In my system I prefer the Fire. In another system I'm sure I could easily prefer Wireworld. What we hear or don't hear has to be taken in the context of the "SYSTEM". Not just with cables, but every component. It's conceivable to me that you can insert a cable in one system and not hear any difference,  but that same cable may have an audible impact in another system.

Suck or blow?  Yes, directionality matters. 💩👀

@ricred1 

"We" make audio too complicated.

I agree with you, but if too many agree it will suck the fun out of these ridiculous threads....

cd318
Cable debates do have a certain sporting value. There may be no winners or losers but the fun is in taking part.

>>>>I don’t imagine the fish in the barrel think it’s very sporting. But, hey, I’m not a fish psychologist. Are fish masochists? That’s the big question. 🤔

calvinj"No not outside my interest as far as debating is concerned. I’ve read your viewpoint. Your several viewpoints actually. They are long and winding."

Well there really is nothing to significantly further assess, analyze or debate because the science in this matter has already been substantially established, reviewed and evaluated and there are actual links already provided in this thread that show even under rigorously designed, conducted and multiple double blind scientific tests that at least some listeners can reliably and repeatedly distinguish audible differences between cables. There are several participants in this thread who have clearly demonstrated that there interest in this topic is to challenge, argue and dispute these results but there is nothing further that can positively result from engaging these people because there interests are confined and limited to argumentation and posturing conducted under a cloak of science that careful examination reveals to be misapplied, misinformed, misunderstood and corrupted it is senseless and futile to invoke reason, science and the scientific method to refute, deny and obfuscate the previously established audible differences between some cables. Just as their are people who insist that the Earth is flat there are those who for purposes of they're own amusement, entertainment and unending delight come hear to "upset the applecart" as Americans say and lay claim to special knowledge, understanding, or insight that produces results and conclusions that conflict with that which has already been established.

"We" make audio to complicated. It's actually pretty simple...if you hear a difference with cables that you prefer than purchase them. If you don't hear a difference or you hear a difference that's not to your liking,  don't purchase them. Audio is about preferences based on the context of the system and room. That includes speakers, amps, preamps, cables, and everything else. 

No not outside my interest as far as debating is concerned. I’ve read your viewpoint. Your several viewpoints actually. They are long and winding.  I’m looking at others at this point. No offense to you and the thesis. Lol. Enjoy 

Cable debates do have a certain sporting value. There may be no winners or losers but the fun is in taking part.

As we have no voting system or judge and jury there may never be an end to this debate. Unless of course WS agree to give the final word to an indifferent bystander, Elizabeth perhaps.

Alternatively we could attempt to have it added to a Philosophy syllabus throughout our most noble seats of learning. It could join other perplexing questions such as the following :

• Is our universe real? 
• Do we have free will?
• Does God exist? ...
• Can you really experience anything objectively?

and finally the big one, the one you're no doubt waiting for - Do cables make a difference?

It might work if we can only get someone with a fully working brain to run it for us. How about it prof? Would you be up for attempting to steer contrary disinterested undergrads through the difficult and treacherously challenging paths of logic and rationality?

You're seem to be the only one among us here with the necessary patience and experience. 

It’s not that difficult to see from calvinj’s point of view there is no debate. He made that pretty clear in his somewhat baiting OP. That’s why the OP was all caps. I’m sure calvinj thanks all those who took the bait. 🤡

By the way, there is no difference between cable skeptics and say, skeptics of the Tice Clock, Mpingo discs, Silver Rainbow Foil, the Green Pen, Schuman Frequency Generator, tiny little bowl resonators or demagnetizing CDs. The only difference is how the skeptic will decide to formulate his philosophic and scientific attack.

calvinj,

So, really, you just find the actual debate to be outside your interest.  In other words, you are fundamentally incurious about the very subject you started a thread on. 


That is just really odd. 


(Of course it can also be explained by you just wanting to start a troll thread to diss people with a skeptical view rather than interact with their ideas...but I was trying to draw out something...anything...more promising than that from you.   Ah well....).

I wasn’t expecting it to turn into blah blah blah. I don’t do scientific testing. I’m only interested in sound. I don’t care about the science or a thesis. I don’t answer your questions cause I don’t care about them. No offense. There are different levels to audio. Sometimes you have your vintage guys. You have the lower end systems then when you hit midfi you have better equipment with transparency. Then when you hit the high end you have special equipment that most of the time performs better where you can hear more and suttle changes in sound. I have heard vintage gear all the way to,a 700k system so I have some gauging on what’s possible Audio wise. My system is modest in my eyes  but I have a great sound I’m happy with where I hear the differences in cabling. You may not. Your hearing might be off. Maybe your equipment doesn’t do what some of the others I’ve heard do. Anyway enjoy your music and your theory. 

@calvinj

Elizabeth I understand all I see is. Lot of blah blah blah

I hope you won't mind answering these questions:


What exactly where you expecting when you started this thread, if it's different than how the discussion turned out?


What would count, to you, as being worthwhile, interesting discussion regarding the question "do cables really matter?"

For instance, what should a cable skeptic talk about, that you WOULD find interesting?

Thought I'd come back to see if this thread actually got interesting. Nope, nada, bupkiss.

Agree with @ghosthouse  and @david_ten  too.

Elizabeth I understand all I see is. Lot of blah blah blah 

Nah, analogous reasoning would be comparing audio to baking a cake and debating the use of different brands of sugar.  And I didn't use any metaphors.  

Reasoning by analogy with mixed metaphors....🙀💩

I'm not going to read through all 11 pages of this thread, but I did have a random thought and this seemed like the best spot for it...

Suppose you had two speaker designers at your disposal, and you gave them both an identical set of a woofer and a tweeter and said make me a speaker.  Would you expect them to sound the same?  Of course not.  One might create a sealed cabinet, or an open baffle, or a bookshelf, or a floorstander, etc.

Now suppose you gave them identical cabinets also.  Would you expect them to sound the same?  I doubt it, they would probably design different crossover frequencies, use different capacitors, silver vs copper wire, different cabinet damping, etc. 

So you specify the crossover frequency for them.  Will they still sound different?  Then you give them each a run of the same speaker wire.  How about now?  If they still sound different, at what point do the speakers sound identical? 

Now suppose both designers are in a vertically integrated company like Audio Note or Bryston and you throw an amplifier into the mix and say build me a speaker and also an amp to drive them.  How many components of the amp would you have to control before they sounded the same?  What if I add a DAC to the mix?

If I hear Yanny and you hear Laurel, will the speakers ever sound the same to both of us?  What if I use music that I like and you hate?  Will you be able to tell the difference if you aren't familiar with the music?

Audio equipment is more alike than it is different.  It's still a source, amp, and speakers.  And yet it does sound different.  My system does not sound the same as my buddy's system.  At all.  I know I wouldn't pass a double blind cable test, but I also know that two speakers that have the same specs don't sound the same at all.  Same for amps, does a 100w Best Buy amp sound the same as a 100w Pass Labs amp?  

My point is when we ask if cables matter, maybe we should instead ask what doesn't matter?  We listen to systems, not cables, but the cables interact with the system just like speaker crossovers, transformers, power supplies, and everything else, not to mention the music being played.  So if cables don't matter, what does matter?  

Which makes more difference, the cost of the cable or the sound you hear when you use the cables? I'm not going to say that expensive cables always sound better, but even Monoprice $3 interconnects sound better with HFC Magnetic adapters. I will be listening to a loom of new CT-2 interconnects, along with Reveal speaker and power cables. I expect they will sound different and maybe better.

kqvkq9
I’ve never heard any difference at any time in reasonably constructed cables.

>>>>Hey, that’s the way it goes sometime. Have you considered ear candling? 🕯

I propose ArgueOn as a companion forum to AudioGon.

@david_ten 

Brilliant.