ETHERNET CABLES

@nonoise  you did. And it was apparent for everyone that actually have knowledge. And again, I don’t hold a grudge from a previous thread, never said that. I said that, in this thread, you made outlandish claims, that you now have admitted you did not understand, posted something that wasn’t relevant to

your claim, stating it refuting everything everyone else is saying, while supporting your claim, when it didn’t do anything of the the sort. People like you are about 1 thing, you cannot be wrong. Well, you are, and somehow you admitted to it too, so a learning experience for you I guess. 
 

you are all noise, and no signal. All you should have posted was something like “anecdotally, I replaced a cable and heard a difference, but I don’t know anything about how Ethernet works”.

@lordmelton i am very consistent in my posting, you are correct. I know this topic very well, and people with out any knowledge like @nonoise argue fanatically. They fall in three categories really, some places all three, “I made a change with XYZ widget, and my system was transformed to the golden system, and if you make the same change everything will be perfect. And if you didn’t hear a different 1) you don’t have good resolving system enough 2) you system doesn’t cost enough money, 3) your hearing is impaired (@nonoise is in this category). 
 

that’s crap. 

@audphile1  sure, why not.

Speakers: 

Audiovector R3 Arrete

Pre/Power: Classe Audio Delta Pre/Stereo

Streamer/Server: NAD M50.2

Interconnects: Kimber KS1116 balanced from pre to power, and Kimber Orchid for AES/EBU from the NAD M50.2 to the Delta Pre.

speaker cables: Kimber 12TC

@jerrybj like him all you want, doesn’t change that he doesn’t know a thing about Ethernet. He can’t answer basic question about articles he claim supports his point. 

Oh Dear, well I guess I'll take a rain check on the purchase of a couple of Shunyata Omega ethernet cables then 😜

Fredrik222 is trying to prove a negative. That is impossible to do.  At least, so far in history no one has succeeded in that.  I hear a difference.  Others hear a difference while some do not.  My wife does not hear a difference.  I accept that and she accepts that I do.  
 

Our cat will sit in front of the speakers when I play jazz but gets up and leaves if I put on Eric Clapton- every time.  What’s he trying to say?

@fredrik222 well if you don’t or can’t hear it in that system, it’s fine. 

@fredrik222,

I can’t but find your argument pompously principled: Has the thought occured to you that heavy error correction in itself causes noise from the processor as well as time allignment issues?. You seem to have no knowledge of D/A conversion issues in audio applications.

Stop feeding the troll. 

@antigrunge2  What heavy error correction?

Certainly, I am not an expert on D/A conversions, never said I was. But please do explain how a ethernet cable impacts the noise in the DAC. It's what I asked of @nonoise and he certainly couldn't come up with anything.

@audphile1  so my system isn't good enough to hear the differences? 

@fredrik222 : Copper Ethernet connections can be affected by jitter, phase noise, and leakage current. Meaning those can "travel" through copper and reach your DAC or streamer, and potentially impact them. At least in theory (of course, you don’t have to try it). For more technical explanation, you can read this (too many words, I know :-):

@thyname  lol. Yeah, that one. Do you want me to dissect it and tell you exactly where UpTone is wrong? Happy to do so, again. But the easiest thing to ask UpTone or anyone else is, show that these issues exists in residential applications of Ethernet, and show that whatever product you insert fixes them. You are at very very technical level that is all very easily measured. 

And it completely discounts still that whatever you put in your system at home have 0 impact on what is upstream. And there are a lot more devices upstream than there are in your network.

Yup, I thought so. Carry on...

@antigrunge2 I’ve hinted at those issues few posts back. It doesn’t look like anything outside the scope of data packets is taken into consideration. 

@fredrik222 not at all what I said. It’s totally fine if you don’t hear it there. In other words I don’t fault you or your system. 

@audphile1 @thyname @antigrunge2 

you are hinging your argument on that there is excessive noise in your residence. I am here to tell you no, there isn’t. I can easily prove that, and I have continued to ask, show me the issues that this cable/switch or whatever, is supposed to fix, because it doesn’t exist in residential applications.

I am not saying there is no noise in your house, just that it is not enough to matter, and Ethernet’s features to combat noise are more than enough for residential applications.

@fredrik222 It must be frustrating to wake up each day, assert to total strangers that you are smarter than they are, you then kindly offer your input and they choose to ignore it? That's not the strange part, the strange part is that you continue to repeat this frustrating exercise each day to an audience who couldn't care less about your input.

You continue to assert that they can't possibly hear what they believe they hear. Why do you care so deeply? why is it your mission to remedy this abomination? You shouldn't have to carry that burden.

@fredrik222 I disagree and I already described why in a long post from the other day.
I even told you just now it’s fine that you can’t hear the difference. Hey there are people who can’t taste the difference between a two buck chuck and a good bottle of chateauneuf du pape. And I’m totally fine with this. You need to accept the fact that you may not hear what others hear and stop telling people they’re nuts. 
 

I have tried “audiophile” Ethernet cables, I have tried UpTone’s Etherregen, and I have not heard any difference.

For a person of such strong convictions, knowing that it couldn't possibly make a difference, what was it that made you try it to see if you could hear a difference? 

Did your faith waver? That would explain the zealotry as you came back into the fold.

All the best,
Nonoise

@audphile1  your analogy about the peanut butter? That is not how it works. There's no cleaning up at all. While I perhaps don't agree with with @12many 's analogy, and he even said it wasn't his strong suit, The better way to explain I think is that you have small child's toy, round holes, square holes, star holes, and triangle holes. Those are your 4 options with a PAM4 encoded signal like Ethernet. From a protocol perspective, as the PAM4 encoded signal comes across the wire, it fits in one of the holes, that's it. There is no option for peanut butter. All these signals coming through each hole is then assembled into a frame. Once the frame is complete, a CRC check is don't on the frame, and if the checksum doesn't match, the frame is completely discarded. No noise. There is no cleaning up. In a residential setting this is very rare, may happen once or twice per year that one frame is lost. So you can have your disagreement, but it is not rooted in facts.

@nonoise  Curiosity. It's a hobby I like to spend money on, so I do. Doesn't change anything. You are still the fanatical one, you are still the one saying it's a problem with me (impaired hearing), doesn't matter that you can't actually back up anything you claim.

@ghasley  never said I was smarter than anyone, I have said I know this particular topic better than anyone on this site, which so far, stands to be true, and when it doesn't, I'll admit so. 

@fredrik222 Just curious why a $500 kimber digital AES/EBU cable when you can move 1s and 0s thru a $20 “professional “ “studio grade” cable just the same? Did you compare and notice an improvement with kimber orchid? Or is it just for the sake of completing the kimber cable loom. 

@audphile1 AES/EBU doesn’t have the same noise rejection , error detection and correction capabilities as Ethernet. I have said it numerous times, Ethernet is not like your other cables, digital or otherwise. I used to have a Classe SSP-800 which pcm over HDMI from the NAD50.2, but when I move to the Delta Pre I bought a Audio Sensibility AES/EBU, but decided to try the kimber, and stuck with it because I like aesthetics of it. Maybe I heard a difference between the Audio Sensibility and the Kimber, but nothing transformational. What I did hear a huge difference was when I switched to the Delta Pre from SSP-800. 

@fredrik222 , Fanatical in getting noise out of my system, yes. Brilliant observation. 

From your reply to ghasley, it looks like you're relying on the ignorance (in a good and non offensive way) of others to look smugly superior until something like the last post from rockrider came along, which mirrors what I gleaned from the link I provided on ethernet protocols and just what can limit or hinder it, which you shot down as not relevant, though it seems to have been.

You're quite the strange fellow.

All the best,
Nonoise

@nonoise  that may be your interpretation, but not true. Correcting people like yourself who blindly posts articles with no understanding doesn’t mean anything to me. But my point is by actually trying to have a discussion around facts, it might help other people not to spend stupid money on things that do not matter. I will never convince you, because how Ethernet works, and the potential actual improvements you can make does not matter to you. But getting someone else to not be another you is a win.
 

as for @rockrider ’s article. It is very much focused in USB, and also contains factual issues. But more importantly, the article states over and over “your power supply sucks” and ends with, buy our power supply instead. 
Some of the factual issues :

Regular RAM is not bit perfect, and you can pay extra for error correcting ram

Noisy power supply does not automatically mean corrupt transfers 

I don’t think any higher end streamers uses wall warts or smps, could be wrong, but mine certainly do not

and lastly, more computer resources doesn’t mean better audio quality

Yawn, I am signing off this BS

@fredrik222 

Did you even read the part of my post about the difference between streaming and file transferring?

@rockrider 

you mean this?

But streaming does not have these robust protocols for data integrity. Streaming allows errors in the name of transfer speed. Have you ever experienced a pixelated image while streaming a video? That is the result of prioritizing speed over data integrity. The similar effect can happen with audio streaming.

yeah, and it is not correct over the Internet and tcp/ip/Ethernet for platforms like Qobuz and Tidal when you chose their lossless options with sustained bit rate.

@rockrider but it actually does not matter if what you posted or what mojo audio posted is correct. None of the “issues” highlighted are resolved with an upgraded Ethernet cable, not even on a theoretical level.

@antigrunge2 bull 💩 it is! 
as a side note…76 and sunny here in Jersey and looks like a perfect opportunity to take work outside, have a coffee and a nice cigar and just have a good laugh at all this ASR infiltration of a’gon

And that’s exactly what I’m planning on doing right after I hit that green button here

@audphile1 I’m in north Jersey too and it’s a truly beautiful day here. Perfect time to go outside and take a break from the ASR crowd. Go get a great Neapolitan pizza tonight and a great bagel tomorrow morning, which doesn’t exist outta the NYC area. Heh heh.

No good pizza joints in northern jersey. They all suck compared to what I’m used to living in Brooklyn for years. Eating jersey pizza is like listening to my system with a cheap yellow ethernet cable which I’d rather not. Lol 

I lurk on these forums for years, hardly ever posting but I attribute most of my hifi spending and knowledge to them. I feel compelled to relate that I changed the generic ethernet cable between my router to my Bluesound Node for a Blue Jeans Cable Bonded Pair Cat 6 Ethernet Cable that was recommended on the 1st page of this thread and I immediately heard a difference. Listening to Dominique Fils-Aimé, Birds, with the new ethernet cable installed, the background in between the notes and vocals became virtually silent (in my setup). The air in the recording was more apparent. I was amazed and I would have never thought to change this cable if not for this forum/thread. I've spent way more than the $21.40 this cable cost for less of an audible difference. So thank you. 

@vicolindo Glad to hear you gave it a try, and to your ears, heard a difference...and for such a small price (right?!). I too always learn from these forums.

After a 48hr spin of playing music off and on with my new cables, I swapped back just to check what's what. Gone were the crisp, clearly defined details. Gone was the soundstage depth. But most noticably, gone was the tone of the sound. Guitar sounded underwhelming and piano sounded completely flat. Needless to say, I spent about 30 minutes with the old cables before yanking them out and replacing them again with the BJC. While others have not heard a difference, I'd say good for them to not need the upgrade. In my system, it made a world of difference. I still prefer my vinyl setup for the tone and balanced presentstion, but the digital side is getting better with every small improvement. My $40 investment in ethernet cable is doing far better than buying a dac worth $40 more than my current one.

Sorry you had to doubt yourself but at least you went and soldiered up to make sure and it turned out your hearing is just fine. Always trust your ears and avoid the professional naysayers. 

All the best,
Nonoise

@nlitworld 

...getting better with every small improvement...

I have a system where a myriad of small improvements have given significant improvement to my digital system.

Black Ravioli Pads, Synergy Research fuses, Akiko Audio products, Audience cables, Triode Wire Labs ethernet cables, Schumann Resonators, mains purifiers, LAN Isolators, Mad Scientist USB cable, fo.Q tape, digital cables, modded network switches, linear power supplies, grounding boxes, Add Power products. 

Improvements before I added a new streamer, Dac, DDC,and  external clock to the mix.

I do find it very interesting how the "anti ASR" crowd on this forum posts claims and articles "supporting" their perception at a fanatical pace, and when someone posts actual information about how Ethernet works, they can't be bothered. 

Another common misconception here is that UpTone and others on this forum is under the impression that the electrical signal is carried through equipment. It is not. It's a point to point going from the transmitter to the receiver. The network receiver reads the electrical signal, but it doesn't actually do anything with that signal, rather creates an aggregate (the Ethernet Frame) of the electrical signal in the digital domain instead the network interface card. 

Anyway, keep on doing what you want, but none of you have posted anything that can show a theoretical improvement of sounds quality when you upgrade a cable. And you never will be able to, since it is not possible. 

@fredrik222 you can’t be helped. And I’m not even talking about ethernet cables here. 

If you go and google ethernet industry standards, problems, EMI/RFI noise pollution, loss of packets, oversubscription, etc. you come up with page after page detailing how it happens all the time, along with the solutions they've had to come up with. This can all be found on their very own industry websites and not some crank audio site.

All freddy is doing is relying on our laymen ignorance (ignorance in a good way) so, as he's proudly proclaimed, until someone can come on who knows more than he does, then he's king sh*t of turd island, and that makes him unassailable. 

If you've noticed, he's down to relying on "theoretical" proof that nothing can better it. 

All the best,
Nonoise

@nonoise you are absolutely right. The industry had to solve for all sort of things, including noise, but that is the point; It is solved it. It is done, no longer an issue. Ethernet today is incredibly robust and error free in commercial environments, and well beyond that in residential environments. That is my whole point.

@audphile1  thanks for proving my point; when presented with how things actually work, ignore, deflect, personal attacks! 

@fredrik222 you don’t see the forest for the trees. 

@audphile1  lol, that’s your argument? When I literally have been telling you that your cable (tree) makes no difference at all in whole transmission chain (forest) from your platform of choice. 
 

yeah, facts and even basic understanding isn’t the anti-ASR crowd’s forte. 
 

if you actually want to learn how Ethernet works, let me know. 

I’m signing out this is hopeless. 

@audphile1 use what you like this @fredrik222 is well an expert in his own empty head. 

Yup he represents ASR well.