Ethernet Cables, do they make a difference?
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This has got to be one of the best deals out there for CAT7 double shielded cables: https://www.sfcable.com/cat7-shielded-patch-cables.html At these prices it's definitely worth a try. |
@kosst_amojan Hmm...you seem to relish throwing folks you disagree with under the bus (Bill Nye the Lyin Guy and Kaku--), which leaves me wondering why you uniformly take a caustic approach. The gravity clip above says nothing outlandish. It says "gravity" exists. Wow! Anyway, I picked gravity because we all know it exists not because it made a particular point about audio equipment. Your response was to take on gravity as if it is clearly questionable and routinely in doubt. Once you went there, I stopped seriously listening to you. You want others to adopt your view on a particular subject as the irrevocable standard and then you roll over gravity as if it is a novel hypothesis. IMO not a convincing way to demonstrate reasonableness. This is my last post with you because I don't think you are listening either. We disagree--something that is possible to do in a civil manner. Peace Al |
kosst_amojan I didn’t even bother to shield the 600VA transformer in my amp. And why? >>>>I’m guessing monkey see monkey do. Because Nelson Pass doesn’t bother to. >>>>Ah, just as I thought. And it makes virtually no difference. >>>>and you know this how? Twisting is generally the safeguard against crosstalk between signal pairs. >>>>But in the case of transformers the magnetic field is an issue for everything in proximity to the transformer. That’s why shielding is used around transformers. If there’re smart, anyway. You know, the low frequency high permeability stuff. |
As a follow-up to the hypothesis I stated in my previous post, here is a quote from another post I had made in the "Most Important Unloved Cable" thread: Almarg 3-19-2017 It should be noted, though, that Bryon's experience involved an Ethernet cable that was connected directly to one of his audio components, not to a computer that was in turn connected to the audio system. Regards, -- Al |
I have to concur with the naysayers but also want to add another angle to consider. No device takes the bits off the network and immediately converts the information into sound. There are buffers in the receiver that are likely several MB in size. This is why something keeps playing for a few seconds even if you cut the network connection. So ... the bits come over the wire and get stored in the buffer and your equipment, DAC or whatever, drains that buffer and turns it into sound. So I don't see how the quality of network cable affects the sound since all its doing is filling a buffer. |
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kosst_amojan Bill Nye ... is hardly any authority on science by training or trade seeing as he's a mechanical engineer.Mechanical engineering is very much a science, kosst. That makes him more of a scientist than you. |
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@kosst_amojan gravity has pretty big impact is audio world, and in the way we all understand it well - it forces everything (including cables) to go down and end up on the floor close to each other. Believe me - I know, I have jumped out of airplanes and there was no cases of not landing... And there, on the floor, when cables are close to each other and parallel to each other, EM kicks in. That is where I can agree that high quality shielding and proper twisting of the pairs can make a difference. But difference in noises reduction. Hope everyone can agree with my gravity understanding :-) |
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@kosst_amojan Because you have asked who says gravity is unimpeachable, I provide this link to Bill Nye, the science guy, and Michio Kaku, astrophysics guy, explaining that gravity is one of nature's four fundamental forces. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9FVFh3HYaY IMO when you are fighting gravity to make your point, you are probably losing ground. But, I admire your feistiness. Peace Al |
kosst_amojan Usually when somebody presents claims of symptoms that have no basis in reality they’re treated with psychiatric medications. Is that what we should do with people who hear Ethernet and HDMI cables?Doctors don’t just throw up their arms in frustration when faced with a difficult diagnosis and then simply write a script for psychiatric medication. Instead, they call in other physicians and scientists, often from other specialties, and they work as a team to find the answer. That’s very different from you simply pronouncing others here as crazy. In some totalitarian systems, people who don’t conform to the government mandated norms are often labelled as crazy, and then pumped up with drugs or sent to a gulag. It sounds like you might like that kind of country - as long as you could remain in charge. Thankfully that isn’t the case here. |
@astewart8944 I would prefer an opposite example: someone puts a fancy component into the system and feels good about it, starts hearing better sound or both, good for him/her. Even if doctor says - it should not help... Hopefully he/she did not spend a lot of money on that and no one who made a component feels like he outsmarted another customer and got easy money. |
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@almarg thanks for the great quote of respected expert. noise and/or RFI is a separate beast shielding, twisting and other means help but moving and turning cable may produce even better affect, removing cable from the system (at least when playing music) solves the ambiguity in the root. I suggested above to compare playing the same source over the network and directly (by copying file to the media player storage) |
It seems to me that what has been largely overlooked in this discussion (with the exception of the brief post by Markalarsen) is the fact that 100% of the energy of an electrical signal, especially one that as in the case of Ethernet contains spectral components at very high RF frequencies, does not necessarily go only where it is supposed to go. Experienced designers of high speed digital circuits (of which I happen to be one) will recognize that. And given that a number of members here who are highly respected and highly experienced audiophiles have reported finding that the choice of an Ethernet cable can have significant sonic consequences, I offered the following hypothesis in the "Most Important Unloved Cable" thread that David_Ten linked to in his post early in this thread: Almarg 3-27-2017Regarding the OP’s specific question, though, I would expect that an Ethernet cable that is upstream of his PC would have less chance of making a difference than one that is directly connected to an audio component, where it would presumably be more likely to couple RF noise into sensitive circuit points within the audio system. Personally I don’t have an Ethernet connection in my audio system, but that’s my take on it. Regards, -- Al |
@amg56 thanks for the link, I have learned something new about higher catX cables. Different cables are designed for different speeds and in the network architecture cable should never be the weakest link. Designing a network you should look onto the performance of the end components and use cables appropriately. What may really make difference is shielding but not for the quality of the audio but for the presence/absence of noises, induced in the analog components. @kosst_amojan actually I used audio over Ethernet cable in my house. There is a protocol called A-bus, it uses special hubs and some receivers have A-bus outputs. Unfortunately it is not compatible with LAN as we know it and it is not a high quality audio. |
Absolutely no. I'm a former software engineer with experience in networking for many years. The data that's being delivered in a CAT/5-6 cable is DIGITAL!! It's a stream of binary data NOT analog data. Ethernet uses CSMA/CD (Carrier sense multiple access with collision detection). If the digitized signal being transmitted isn't 100 perfect it will retransmit the packet. The ONLY difference between CAT/5-8 is the speed at which it's certified for. 10, 100 or 1000 Mbits/s. For a 20-20kHz digitized signal CAT5 is more then adequate. Again, in the digital domain there is NO difference between a cheap Ethernet cable and a more expensive one. None! If you believe there is your just throwing good money away. |
@kosst_amojan Hmm...I don't know if you meant to do so, but you kind of made my point. You didn't advance your position by suggesting that anyone who says they hear ethernet cable differences is crazy. I counted at least 17 people on this thread, to this point, who affirm they have tried a different ethernet cable and heard a difference. Others, fewer in number but not statistically significantly less, said they either didn't hear a difference or it is impossible to hear a difference. I actually think everyone described accurately what they heard. But, I leave open the possibility that you may be right; all these folks may be victims of confirmation bias. But, I also leave open the possibility that you may be wrong. And very smart people have been known to be wrong about strongly held scientifically held views. Ethernet cable sound quality attributes is not the equivalent of gravity. One is unimpeachable--that would be gravity. For the record, not one of the posters claimed to hear the electricity in their wall outlets. :-) Peace Al |
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I went to the doctor and told him I didn't feel good. He ran tests and said I was imagining it because he couldn't see anything in my test results that would explain how I felt. When I left the doctor, I still felt bad and he felt scientific. One of us was experiencing something while the other was busy explaining that the experience wasn't genuine. This illustrates the never-ending "I hear it--no you don't" back and forth on this site. Trotting out what degree we have in a specific discipline, or our technical credentials doesn't invalidate what a person says they sense or experience. I understand the back and forth isn't going to end--but it can be done in a way that doesn't infer, imply, suggest or expressly say that whoever doesn't agree with the stated position, whichever one it is, must be intellectually inferior, dishonest or lack the acuity to share the experience. Peace Al |
In terms of cable quality, there is a difference in the core metal type, how it is formed or spun (I can't think of the word I mean), then there is the cover, insulation and so on. This will determine the efficiency and reliability of the signal over the cable. Please excuse me if I am saying the obvious. Just trying to help those who are not sure of these things. A |
Perhaps this link may help https://planetechusa.com/blog/ethernet-different-ethernet-categories-cat3-vs-cat5e-vs-cat6-vs-cat6a-vs-cat7-vs-cat8/. The "new" standard being developed is AoE. By new I mean the protocols for music explicitly haven't been ratified. There are about 8 protocols, some open and the others proprietary. The difference in cthe CAT numbers involve the bandwidth, but all this is covered in the link subject matter. A |
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dimora I agree. We’ve stated the actual facts based on how ethernet cables actually work. The rest of the voodoo anyone else may wish to promote will have to be caveat emptor on the buyer’s part. >>>>>Yeah, you guys gave it your best shot. You can walk with your head held high. Remember, only quote facts. Better luck next time. |
I shall say it again (my previous post was deleted by admin or may be @geoffkait is an admin himself) @geoffkait stay on subject, post your opinion, even better - support it by facts.Do NOT go personal if you have no other (scientifically proven) arguments. Getting personal on other member shows your weakness. Have a good day. |
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acepilot71m @geoffkait do I know you? I did not give you right to talk to me so do not!Sorry, this is public forum. No one here needs permission from you to post, or to respond to your posts. |
I confess. I do not have an engendering degree. Sob! 😥 FYI I just got through with my lecture on why no proof is required on another thread, and why all have to work with usually is evidence and why proof, even when there is proof, is subjective. Too bad you missed the lecture. Maybe I’ll give it again. Stay tuned. |
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They make no difference. None. Zilch. Nada. Spend your money elsewhere in your system. You are streaming 1’s and 0’s. If you hear music, they are getting there. Period. The 1’s and 0’s are turned into ANALOG by your D/A converter, and THAT matters, but the quality of the cable that delivers the 1’s and 0’s only needs to be sufficient to get them there without loss. Any cat 5e or 6 cable is sufficient for audio use transmitting a digital signal. Cat 6 is what I use and what I wired my entire house with since it supports 1GBPS speed. I have a 1GB capable QNAP NAS which serves up DLNA/Twonkymedia to my whole house feeding Oppo players/computers/receivers/TV’s etc. You can test any ethernet cable with a simple cable tester. I terminate my own. I use Southwire brand Cat6 riser cable (home depot) in my walls and I use cheap Monoprice or CableMatters (Amazon) for wall jack to component connections. Anyone who tells you that ethernet cables make an audible difference in the digital domain does not understand digital data transmission and /or they are trying to profit from your ignorance. The same is true of digital Coax and Toslink (optical); the signal either gets there or it doesn’t. I’ve been building computers and setting up networks since 1996 and I used to own a Company selling audio cables; I know quite a bit in this area. |
No need to switch to the argument on personalities, just simply get someone to help, do the blind test and... please, please, please, post here honest result. preferably with details of equipment involved in network connection from the internet to the media player. Until than - it is a placebo effect which has no scientific background. |
kosst_amojan What planet are you from?I'm from earth. That may be a different planet than yours. I guess I’m biased ...Big time! Pardon me, but your bias a.k.a. prejudice is showing again. You don't know anything about me, so please don't pretend that you do. According to your logic, we can only know it won’t work if when the thing explodes.Of course I never said that, or implied that. You seem to have some problems. Good luck resolving them. |
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kosst_amojan
You are lashing out like a petulant child. Your babbling and incoherent posts have not contributed or rebutted anything. Give it a very long rest. |
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